Sneakylong I don't know what my line is. Nobody is ever going to be dangling millions of dollars in my face to do anything, so I will never have to make that decision.

The only point I was trying to make is that it is almost impossible to live in the modern world without supporting horrible things in one way or the other. And that it strikes me as odd that people who never said anything about all that other stuff all of a sudden have a bee in their bonnet about this. That's all.

A lot of talk about 'sport washing.' Not sure that's what is happening here, per se. First, I'm not sure the Saudis are all that worried about how they are perceived in the world. They have been villains for a long time, and everybody knows it. Why are they suddenly interested in how they look? And if they were interested in that, why choose a sport like golf, which is not really a very popular sport for watching anywhere in the world. Why not a soccer league? Or a baseball league? Or an American football league, or a basketball league. All of these sports have far more followers than golf. So if the whole point was to distract the world from their atrocities, why not do it with a popular sport?

      MartinD any individual

      IMO, FIPJAM is an exception....his issues with $/gambling are fairly well known.

        rsvman2 why not do it with a popular sport?

        They did. They own a UK soccer team I understand. By the way, their 'image' washing has been going
        on for several years with BS propaganda.

            Spuzz I'm just trying to be a good boy and listen to those who know more about this than I do. I'm not sure who is right, and who is wrong. I'm pretty sure that there are only a small handful (probably be able to count them on one hand with a few fingers left over)of counties that have kept the human rights violations and other fucked up crap. No country is perfect, just as there is no perfect person.
            However, I am content to sit here and eat popcorn and listen.

                It must be the $54mil "bonus" changing some of these guys minds about playing for LIV!😁

                azgreg

                I mentioned this possibility in one of my posts earlier. I had read an article about this. They did sign a strategic alliance last year with the PGA Tour, but they could possibly either fully merge or the PGA buy the DP World Tour.

                https://golficity.com/all-you-need-to-know-about-the-new-dp-world-tour/

                "New Title Sponsor
                Dubai Port World, or DP World for short, is a Dubai based logistics company who are the leading provider of global smart end-to-end supply chain and logistics solutions — perfect for helping a golf tour traverse the globe."

                The Saudi’s could easily afford to buy the DP Tour. They’re making $1 billion dollars a day in oil. If that happened that would be a huge disruption.

                https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-26/saudi-arabia-s-oil-exports-hit-the-highest-level-since-2016

                Paul McGinley said last night that one option he’s hearing from the business community is the PGA change it’s business model to a contract model. Where they sign the top players to big contracts and then they’d be contracted to play against the other top players more often.

                If they did this they’d have to get rid of the Korn Ferry and Champions Tour and their charitable donations. That would be a drastic change. Hard to see that happening, but who knows.

                    rsvman2

                    It's a hot topic right now in golf circles with strong feelings on both sides. I'm just some guy yapping on a golf forum, but these guys put their money where their mouth is. @azgreg posted this tweet awhile back. Pumpkin Ridge is where the next LIV Golf event will take place. Tom Canzaro has some strong opinions in his article below.

                    https://www.johncanzano.com/p/canzano-take-a-hard-pass-on-liv-golf?s=r

                        Sneakylong. I think you've changed the narrative a bit. There's absolutely nothing wrong with calling out the Saudis for human rights abuses. What I and I think others are saying is why criticize golfers for taking their money when we all do the same every day? I think rsvman2 's quote about " you stole a candy bar and your mad at the guy who robbed a bank" is spot on.


                          Sneakylong good for them, they actually did something rather than just post faux outrage on a golf forum.

                            Eguller And really, how has that changed their image in the world one iota. This " sportswashing" thing is completely ridiculous to me

                                garyt1957 This " sportswashing" thing is completely ridiculous to me

                                Maybe this will help you. But maybe not. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 😉

                                "Sportswashing is the practice of an individual, group, corporation, or government using sport to improve their tarnished reputation, through hosting a sporting event, the purchase or sponsorship of sporting teams, or by participation in the sport itself. At the international level, sportswashing has been used to direct attention away from a poor human rights record and corruption scandals within a government. While at the individual or corporate level sportswashing is used to cover up and direct attention away from said person's or company's vices, crimes, or scandals. Sportswashing is an example of reputation laundering."

                                "Sportwashing has been used to describe events as far back as the 1936 Summer Olympics which were held in Berlin, Germany during Nazi rule and where used to spread Hitler's ideals of race and anti-Semitism, and the 1934 FIFA World Cup which where held in Italy during fascist rule. Sportwashing has described as part of a nation's Soft power."

                                    Sneakylong Correct me if I'm wrong but the PGA Tour doesn't give anything to charities. Money is raised in the communities in conjunction a tournament but its not PGA money. Kind of like I go door to door to collect money for a charity but I'm not out any of my own money

                                        Sneakylong That's a definition of Sports Washing. I know exactly what it's supposed to be. Now I ask you, give me one example where it's worked?
                                        Do we suddenly view the Nazis favorably because they hosted the Olympics? Or almost 100 years later do we view the Chinese government any different because they recently held an Olympics? How about the old Soviet Union? Saudis have owned a soccer league, an IRL franchise, etc, how is that working for them? Sportswashing is a joke. And the joke is on anybody who thinks it works in any way

                                            garyt1957 Correct me if I'm wrong but the PGA Tour doesn't give anything to charities. Money is raised in the communities in conjunction a tournament but its not PGA money. Kind of like I go door to door to collect money for a charity but I'm not out any of my own money

                                            "Each PGA TOUR tournament provides individuals an opportunity to give back to the community in one of three ways – attending an event, volunteering, or donating money. Not-for-profit tournaments under the PGA TOUR umbrella donate their net proceeds to support local organizations, totaling more than $3 billion in donations to date."

                                            Most charities like the United Way and Red Cross raise money thru donations. Nothing revelatory here.😏

                                            "United Way organizations raise funds primarily via workplace campaigns, where employers solicit contributions that can be paid through automatic payroll deductions. After an administrative fee is deducted, money raised by local United Ways is distributed to local nonprofit agencies."

                                            "You Can Make
                                            a Difference
                                            Support all the urgent humanitarian
                                            needs of the American Red Cross
                                            with your financial gift.

                                            DONATE NOW"

                                                Sneakylong Still doesn't say the PGA itself gives anything, except their name. If I'm not mistaken, the PGA does give away money, but that money is from donations at each tournament; thus, THEY are not pulling money from their account.

                                                btw....our John Deere Classic here raised 12.6M last year, and was operating under Covid restrictions. Better yet, they also raised over 12M in 2020....and the tournament was not even held!! 😁

                                                    garyt1957

                                                    Glad their "PR" strategy isn't working for you. But they think it's worth the effort.

                                                    https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2022/06/10/sportswashing-explained-saudis-liv-golf/10003676002/

                                                    **"Sport is loved and played around the world, it is a giant unifying force, and it’s also a multi-billion dollar industry," the organization wrote. " ... By associating themselves with sport, leaders are seeking to position their country in line with that magic. They want to bask in reflected glory, and thus lighten their image.**

                                                    "Sporting events have good reputations. They’re glamorous. They invite prestige, and prestigious characters," said Dana Ahmed, a researcher at Amnesty International who specializes in Saudi Arabia. "So these kinds of events contribute to creating a new image for Saudi Arabia. They contribute to the country’s efforts in rebranding itself.

                                                    Perhaps the clearest examples of this, human rights activists say, are instances in which countries host major international sporting events. They often point to recent hosts of the Winter Olympics (Russia and China) and World Cup (Russia and Qatar)."

                                                    Ahmed said Saudi Arabia has made a broad concerted effort to rebrand its image in recent years, particularly after the murder of Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi inside a Saudi consulate in 2018. A U.S. intelligence report determined the country's crown prince, Mohammed bin Salman, signed off on the operation.

                                                    "Sportswashing is one part of (the PR strategy)," Ahmed said. "Another part of it is all the entertainment events that include women, some legislative reforms in the country that also allow for women’s participation in society.

                                                    Chadwick said that while the Saudis' investment in LIV Golf might not result in an immediate financial payoff, it is a play for both long-term profit and political capital. And althgouh only one of the league's eight scheduled events will be held in Saudi Arabia, he believes LIV Golf is yet another sign that the nation is trying to position itself as an international sports destination, which would bring both clout and money down the line.

                                                    It’s almost as though Saudi Arabia is trying to position itself as the Las Vegas of the Middle East," Chadwick said."

                                                        Par4QC Still doesn't say the PGA itself gives anything, except their name. If I'm not mistaken, the PGA does give away money, but that money is from donations at each tournament; thus, THEY are not pulling money from their account.

                                                        Asked and answered. Look up how the United Way and Red Cross raise money. Most charities raise money thru donations. On a small scale example. Let's say you want to raise money for your high school golf team.

                                                        You run a golf tournament to raise money thru donations to play in the tournament. You solicit local businesses to advertise in your tournament. The money comes thru donations in one form or another.

                                                        Nothing new here.