265 to 275 yard drives for an 80 plus year old is certainly an aberration. We have some 80 plus year olds in our group who are more like 165-175. I'm 61 and crushed a drive the other day and measured it with my GPS watch and it showed a whopping 243.
An 83 year old with a 100 mph swing speed is not something you see everyday.
An overwhelming majority of avid golfers fail to produce more than 90 mph club head speed with driver.
I won't say this is not true.
If taken into consideration of the myth of "hold the grip like holding a live bird". " relaxed", "don't move your head", "lean back like you're sitting on a stool " .............. the poor average golfer would never reach their potential.
Comes back to the famous clause all teaching pro had agreed upon, It's almost impossible to teach the "feel" in golf. For an instant. Sam Snead's famous sentence , " hold the golf club lightly like you're holding a live bird". This is true to Sam Snead. Most of us failed to realize just how strong the Hill Belly is. Sam Snead is a very strong person, especially in the shoulders and arms. This came from both his father and mother's side of family. He said he got the strength from his father and his stamina from his mother's side. Plus he grew up out doors from hunting, trapping, chopping woods..... starting from an early age like 8. So, holding a golf club lightly from Sam's point of view could be correct for the average golfer to hold the golf grip firmly.
Each person has a different make up from their physical ability to their mental strength. Most of the golfers could not reach over 90 MPH with driver swing speed owes a great deal to the generic teaching of the "proper way " to play this game. Hence Harvey Penick don't let some of his students watch each other's lessons. He never let Tom Kite and Ben Crenshaw observe each others lessons, for these two are different in the way they swing a golf club. Tom was a more a mechanic and Ben was mostly a feel player.
Correct. Swing speed is determined by your fast twitch muscles and not from strength per se. Most people have an equal amount of fast and slow twitch muscles (thus the 85 - 90 mph average). People who can swing the club fast (100 mph plus) have more fast twitch muscles than slow twitch muscles. But they are in the minority unfortunately for most of us.
An 83 year old who can swing ~ 100 mph must've had many more fast twitch muscles in his heyday. My guess is he was up in the 115 - 120 mph range in his younger years. And 275 yards at 83 means he still has more fast twitch muscles than slow twitch muscles today, just not firing as fast as they once did.
I'm a little skeptical since no GPS was used. Golfers typically over exaggerate how far they hit it. Sometimes by a lot.
Bobby Jones had a swing speed of 113 mph. Watch some of those old Shells Wonderful World of Golf matches. They were hitting 300 yard drives back then.
I was blessed with fast twitch muscles. The trick is to know it and train them. Played all sports growing up and didn't know anything about it back then.
Found out about them from golf. So I'm 56, stand 5"5" and top out at 140 lbs with. 28" waist. Not exactly a physical speciman. But my swing speed averages 115mph. And I work on it doing speed drills in the off season.
I'm in the gym doing a combination of crossfit and athlete training 4-5 days a week. Not a big weightlifter...lucky I can bench my own weight. Usually squats and deadlifts.
Getting back to fast twitch, box jumps and explosive exercises are where it's at. I rountinely have 36" box jumps , 100 and 200 meter sprints in the workout. We do nfl things like broad jump...did 8'5" and lived teasing the 27 yr olds that were doing 7' or less.
Train, Train , Train....keeps my distances up which is my concern.
Typhoon, If so I could spot you in the crowd " twitching fast". LOL.
Seriously, these muscle could be trained. More effectively with the younger golfers than the aged ones. I guess when one is older, nothing could be trained effectively.
We had training in other sports and training for reflect motion. Catching a fly in mid air with bare hands is not just in the movies. Catching a coin dropped from arms length to the table top in mid air was fun and boost up the eye hand coordination. We used to have guys sit across from each other at a small table facing each other at arm's length. One would stand his arm on the table top with elbow on the table holding a coin. The other would put his hand on the table top getting ready. The one holding the coin would drop the coin without notice within 30 second from the time of start. If the coin is caught before hitting the table top by the other guy, he would own the coin.
I used to get a lot of change that way when I was in Junior high school.
Martial arts training really helped the development of the ability to concentrate beside the physical benefit. Thanks to the Bruce Lee craze back in the 70's
So, there is hope if anyone wish to train their ability to better their golf game. Heck, I could put together a program without killing someone in training to better their golf game.
Bangoman Steve I play every week with a guy that I met as a single who has turned out to be my best friend here in Surfside Beach.
He's a Nam vet,physical issues due to service.
Now here's the rub
I have one leg,other is prothetic.
Zak, a bad back.
He is the slowest S.O.B. that I have ever played with.
Every club covered,uncovered,recovered every shot.
Cart driving...arghhhh.
Ya' know what, I wouldn't play with anyone else.
Even though the round might take 4++, there is never a lull in conversation and we are both each others best cheerleader acknowledging great shots.
rob
How do you explain the average handicap not going down despite all the new equipment, instruction, methods etc.? Just a lack of training? My brother in law is under the same illusion. He believes if he lived in Florida and could play (train) year round he'd be a better golfer. Baloney. If that were the case why do we see leader boards on the PGA Tour change so often week to week? They can train full time. It's a game of peaks and valleys for all levels.
Also, an average golfer who's swing speed is ~ 90 mph can never be trained to swing the club ~115 mph. Training could bump it up slightly.
There are some things despite all the training you do your physical ability is limited. Running fast is another good example. Despite all the training your ability to run fast will be limited to your physical capabilities (more fast twitch muscles).
"Know any HIIT aces who struggle to run a mile? How about a marathoner who can't nail a box jump? The difference might lie in the makeup of their skeletal muscles.
People have two general types of skeletal muscle fibers: slow-twitch (type I) and fast-twitch (type II). Slow-twitch muscles help enable long-endurance feats such as distance running, while fast-twitch muscles fatigue faster but are used in powerful bursts of movements like sprinting."
Again, the majority of people have roughly equal amounts of fast and slow twitch muscles. The fast swingers have more of the type II fast twitch muscles which gives them the ability to swing the club fast. Benefits from training will be limited because of the skeletal muscle makeup you were born with.
Sneakylong type II fast twitch muscles
You can have all the type II fast twitch muscles humanly possible but if you don't know how to apply it to the purpose and don't have the mind to command it , don't have the eye hand coordination for accurate application.... all is of no use.
Like they say, you can have all the information in front of you but if you don't have the ability to analyze to best use for your purpose, it's just a pile of junk.
Average golfer thought this is a difficult game ? Who told them that ? If they believe from the beginning this is a difficult game then they will have a difficult time to enjoy the game. Best equipment , best teaching lesson, more practice time.... will be just a "pile of garbage " if they can't take advantage of the tool.
Teaching pro love these golfers because they will come back year after year for lessons.
The goal of an average golfer is not to play golf like the top 100 golfers in the world. The goal of an average golfer is to be able to find a way to maximize their potential and be able to enjoy playing golf. If they already limit their potential by believing they can or can not perform the task with proper tools then, better pick up bowling .
Why the ranking of the top players changing all the time ? Because this is a demanding game played at the very top level. I'm sure you know the difference between the winner of a tournament and the rest of the field probably separated by only a few strokes over a 4 days tournament, At that level, what matters is between the ears, because almost all these top players have the required tools to master the game. What's between the ears could decide the winner of a golf tournament, could win a battle with inferior force, could mean survival under adverse condition.... if you ever like to study human history, there are plenty of examples.
Most the average golfers will seek to acquire the "tools" of the game, not even close to talk about what's matter between the ears.
Practice a lot ? What do you know about practice a lot ? Have you hit practice shot until your fingers and hand bleed from blisters ? Bandage up and hit some more because you had just groove in a certain ball flight ? Have you hit so many golf balls that you could not move the second day but couldn't wait to get out there on the third day for some more ?
Golf is not a game could be bought, ONLY with the latest equipment or taking lessons from the top teaching pro. Golf is a game of passion which one continues to seek the answer which one will never master. Reaching the border of one's maximum potential is about what an average golfer could look forward to. The journey is what made it interesting.
A shorter stronger golfer can still hit the golf shots close to another taller stronger golfer. The price to pay for playing this game close to one's limitation is huge. Debilitating health issue when one gets older is beyond imagination. Like any other sports, Baseball pitcher whom could not lift their arms later in life from all the pitches they had thrown. Football players whom could not get out of bed to put on their pants in the morning from all the banging around on the field ...... Golfers will have those type of injury not well known by the average golfers.
Slamming Sam Snead said he was hurting from slamming the golf balls, but when an average golfer looked at his signature golf swing will never know the hurt behind that smooth golf swing.
Once again you lose me. 99.5 % of golfers play above scratch. The average handicap is ~ 16 to 18. It has nothing to do with how much they practice. It's simply a hard game to play and get consistently good at. In order to be a scratch player (in addition to scoring criteria) you need to be able to drive the ball 250 yards and reach a 470 yard par 4 in two shots. And you can practice and train all you want, but your ability to swing the club fast is determined my birth. Unfortunately we have no say in that. The numbers don't lie. People are not getting any better at this game and have not for many years.
Golf has a uniqueness to it unlike any other sport. Golfers will find a key and think they've finally got it. Only to find out that (that) epiphany was fleeting. Then that epiphany search begins all anew. This happens at all levels of golf.
I remember Lee Westwood when he was struggling saying he would spend hours on the range and he was hitting it worse at the end of the session than when he began. And we need to look no further than the best player in the last 20 years to show how fast you can lose it.
I'm playing to a 9.9 handicap right now (11 home course par 71). Normally shoot low - mid 80s and if I'm on mid to upper 70's. I cannot practice anymore due to chronically bad elbows. Use to be a huge range rat. Loved practicing and trying to get better.
What I've found confirms what I've read. After playing for ~ 3 years you'll most likely reach your potential. I shoot the same scores today without any practice as when I could practice. And I mean I cannot even hit warmup balls before my round.
Anyway, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject. But I do believe the numbers along with physiology support my view. Maybe someday we can agree on something............
It has nothing to do with philosophy.
You didn't get it and you won't. It is what it is, just like the game of golf. One can talk and debate to death without agreement, just step up and show one's game . End of story.
Once knew a kid whom could argue with the best and taunt a nice golf game with a single digit handicap index ( according to himself with the online index system - self reported scores ). One day he made a mistake by posting his golf swing on the forum. He'll be lucky to break 100 unless he could putt the golf ball in the cup from 100 yards out.
Not saying you're like him, I'm sure you're solid as you state by yourself.
Who said anything about Philosophy? The word I used is Physiology as it relates to the musculoskeletal system regarding fast and slow twitch muscles.
"The musculoskeletal system is made up of the body's bones (the skeleton ), muscles , cartilage, tendons, ligaments, joints, and other connective tissue that supports and binds tissues and organs together. Its primary functions include supporting the body, allowing motion, and protecting vital organs."
I agree let's end this story before it takes anymore bizarre turns. Ever heard the expression, a blind man in a room full of deaf people?
Sneaky,
Best for you to leave this thread if you only believe the information what you read and gathered without putting it to" practice" and experience.
Any golfer including the opposite gender without obvious physical handicap or suffer from any ailment ( or old age ) could hit close to 250 yards drive with proper equipment and training. If the golfer wants to put in the dedication like training for an Olympic event. Yes, I read that article about "scratch" golfer also. It's not that simple to MAINTAIN a zero handicap or plus index.
As for "philosophy", don't go back and change your post then contradict the original statement.
Sorry I picked up your reply in my thread, thought to give you another chance . I was wrong.... this time for sure.
I changed nothing. You misread physiology for philosophy. From my post. "Anyway, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this subject. But I do believe the numbers along with 'physiology' support my view."
As for the rest of your post I have one word. Baloney. That 83 year old who you think hit it 275? You had no GPS and by you saying most people with training can hit it close to 250, now I know you're full of it. My guess is most golfers can't average 200 yards (including miss hits) let alone 250. No amount of training is going to get some one 50 yards.
There's an old salt water fisherman expression where I come from when some one is full of it. They say your ass is sucking east wind. You're just not used to getting called out on your BS.
Good night and good luck with your nonsensical threads / posts. I must learn not to engage with delusional thinking.
My guess is the 83 year olds drives were 'slighty' exaggerated. And I use the word slightly very loosely. We have 3 guys in their 80's that still play in our group and their distance is way down from where they once were. One guy who is 85 is still as straight as ever, but can't hit an iron more than 125 - 130 yards tops. The key is to play off the appropriate tee for your distance.
Gary, Good to see you here.
Yes, and the 3rd senior whom plays senior tournament all over the country had made a comment at the back nine that he tried to catch up with the 83 year old's drive ( his own driving distance was close to 240-250, very long for someone over 70 ). It;s funny because I first noticed that the 3rd senior golfer tried harder and harder at his golf swing. Thought it was the effect of getting tired from walking the course, but he let it out on the 15th tee box telling the 83 that what in the world that he could not catch up with the 83's drive and he check the distance on several holes just to make sure it was not a fluke.
Come to think about it, not sure what's in the Vodka.
My memory of this 83 was when I walk up to the first tee and there he was sitting on the bench on the side of the tee box looking out to the green. Like a framed picture. Dressed appropriately like a golfer. I walked up and he looked around at me, I said " good morning, are you next up " ? He replied a simple "yes" and shook my hand , exchanged our first name politely. I than asked him where is his cart or golf clubs, he said casually, "oh, my partner took the golf cart and went back to the parking lot to get something ".......... A brief exchange .
Okay, in the back of my mind I thought maybe the someone had remembered his birthday wrong.
I was correct, the guy was not 83 but 81 years old. I confirmed this with several other golfers whom I hitched a round with the other day. Their 4th had back issue and I was walking on with the last minute decision.
So apparently, these 3 golfers played with the same guy in the past and one of them played college baseball one played college football, one played high school football. The one played the college baseball asked if I had played with the same guy there at the golf course, of course, I replied yes and shared our story.
His comment was, "okay , when he started playing well, I thought this will blow over soon but he kept coming up with pars and birdies and beat the crap out of us... later walked in the 19th hole and the bartender asked the 81 year old - the usual Mr......and he said sure and get my buddies a beer" as they walked in after the 81 year old.
So my mistake, the golfer is 81 instead of 83.
Well, my father is 83 and he can hit a driver about 230 or so. His 8-iron 150-ish. Still plays from the white tees. Routinely breaks 80. Had shot his age innumerable times.
I don't buy 275 from an 83-year-old, although it might be possible. But I think it is unlikely, since my father has got to be in the 99th percentile for 83-year-olds.
