Sneakylong Exactly. You can’t have the arc of your swing move forward if you hang back on your back foot. The golf swing is not a singular pendulum swing.

It’s a double pendulum swing. Too many of us swing on a singular pendulum, thus struggle with a forward swing bottom. Resulting in a random low point with fats and thins.

This is what makes golf so hard for most people. You’re trying to hit a ball on the ground with a crooked stick. Oh, and you’re supposed to hit the ball before the ground, but the ball is sitting on the ground. 😏

And unlike baseball you have to square the club face as well. 🙄

Good to hear you get it SL!

    Sneakylong Dan Martin says the exact opposite. So does the Zen golf guy.
    Whatever thought works for you is fine. I don't think there is one idea that is universal and works for everybody.

        rsvman2 This thread is about MDLT swing so hence folks that disagree with Manuel's teaching are free to post but know that many of us that have posted in this thread either were taught by Manuel or believe in his teachings. So, many of us won't agree with the non-believers.

        rsvman2 I don't think there is one idea that is universal and works for everybody.

        I agree.

              scotts33 There's more than one way to swing a golf club, but Ben Hogan, Sam Snead, early Jack Nicklaus and Tiger Woods had similar swings. Swing like the best or swing like the rest.

                  rsvman2 Dan Martin says the exact opposite. So does the Zen golf guy.
                  Whatever thought works for you is fine. I don't think there is one idea that is universal and works for everybody.

                  Yeah, there's many ways to swing. Different swing theories etc.. They all work. You just have to find which one is best for you.

                  Years ago there was an epic debate at a PGA meeting between Jim Flick (hands and arms) and Jimmy Ballard (big muscles of the body).

                  Marcus of ZEN Golf does say that the swing is a double pendulum though. It has to be to get a forward low point. He gets very good results with his exaggerated weight shifts etc.. Very knowledgeable guy.

                  But again, all the hands and arms guys like Manuel de la Torre go back to the teachings of Ernest Jones. Ernest Jones lost a leg in WWI. He had to figure out how to play golf with one leg.

                  His teaching philosophy was 'club focused' and not 'body focused'. You swung the club with your hands and arms and the body reacts to the swinging of the club.

                  Manuel's father was friends with Ernest Jones and that's how Manuel was introduced to that method. I've found for me that the body reacts to the hands and arms philosophy works best for me.

                  Opposed to Ballard's idea that the big muscles of the body i.e. legs, torso and shoulders control the swing rather than the smaller muscles of the hands and arms.

                  For me the hands and arms swing was more relatable to all the other sports I played. Basketball was my main sport. I dribbled and shot the basketball with my hands and arms and never once thought of what my body was doing.

                  My body just reacted to what my hands and arms were doing.

                  I also think whether you're a hands and arms focused golfer of a body focused golfer it helps greatly if you're blessed with fast twitch muscles.

                  Which most of us are not. This is why the average swing speed of a male golfer is in the low 90's mph.

                  The body focused swing is the dominant method taught today. George Ganka's is a very popular body rotation swing guru right now for example. For me though focusing on the body doesn't work.

                  The swing happens so fast that if I concentrate on what different parts of my body are doing it results in a nightmare.

                    pellmell Yeah. Emulating one of those guys is a sure recipe for success for the average golfer.

                    The beauty of the EJ/MDLT swing for me is that it is the simplest way I have found for the average person to play good golf. It has been by far the most intuitive method for me. I am not trying to be Tiger Hogan or Ben Nicklaus or whomever. I simply want to go out, hit the ball well and enjoy myself.

                    Having said that, I am sure you can play "high level" golf with this method.

                    I believe the single most important factor in playing well is confidence, so do whatever gives you that confidence.

                        Subsonic The beauty of the EJ/MDLT swing for me is that it is the simplest way I have found for the average person to play good golf. It has been by far the most intuitive method for me. I am not trying to be Tiger Hogan or Ben Nicklaus or whomever. I simply want to go out, hit the ball well and enjoy myself.

                        Having said that, I am sure you can play "high level" golf with this method.

                        I believe the single most important factor in playing well is confidence, so do whatever gives you that confidence

                        Good points and I feel the same.

                        To answer your questions a few posts back. The only thing that changes for me other than specialty shots with MDLT is the length of the club. My woods and irons/wedges have that sameness to them just the playing length changes.

                        I have taken some points of Brian Sparks Positive Impact Golf and applied them to MDLT but I feel they both can be intertwined. P.I.G. helped with the mental side and not over swinging more fluidity or souplesse which Manuel preached to me. My left heel depending on the length of swing is lifted and body turn/turn with target focus and weight on front side belt buckle turned at target. At a senior age 73 all of this ability to make a full turn has added slight distance and my body doesn't ache after walking and carrying 18. It's the mental side of being centered ie. E. Jones and not having to think where is this body part or that. It's a timing swing with no thinking. Most would think a timing swing would be hard to repeat but I find it much much easier with good ball flight. The resistance swings are body killers for seniors.

                          A benefit of Manuel and other hands / arm guys teachings are not only are they body friendly, but you don’t need a lot of practice time to develop that type of swing.

                          As I mentioned the body focused swings are in vogue right now. And there really isn’t much new in golf swing evolution. It’s all been done before. Like other things it’s history we don’t know.

                          A hands / arms guy I follow is Mike Malaska who was a disciple of Jim Flick. He’s big on the hands. Milo Lines is a disciple of Malaska’s, but incorporates the squat and turn pivot that is so prevalent in body focused swings.

                          Nobody says you can’t take pieces of things from different teachers and use them in your own swing. Another hands / arms guy I started following is from Sweden, Marcus Edblad. His stuff makes a lot of sense to me. Here’s one of his many vids below.

                          I’ve incorporated his pushing down of the trail hand into impact with irons with pretty good success. Especially my wedge play.

                            scotts33 So, many of us won't agree with the non-believers.

                            I would agree that many people would agree or disagree with an agreed-upon agreement. Those in agreement are unique, just like those in disagreement.

                            PapaD's musings, circa 2022

                                I like watching Monte Scheinblum. His no cast turn video really is amazing. He’s a LD guy so I like his instruction because it’s always going to be speed related. Swinging your arms faster is the key to hitting it longer.

                                I’ve picked up some good winter drills from him and a few others to increase strength in my left side and increase arm speed.

                                  Subsonic

                                  This makes too much sense. lol

                                  "The club-focused instruction long advocated by de la Torre and Ernest Jones prior to him has now been validated by new research performed by Dr. Gabriele Wulf at the University of Las Vegas and by Dr. Bob Christina at the University of North Carolina.

                                  In their studies players of all skill levels improved faster when given club-focused instruction."It has been recognized that the golf club is a tool and humans are remarkable in their use of tools (hammer, scissors, scalpel, knife, tooth brush, etc.). With none of these, or any other tools, does a person attend to how the body is used. The body action is a subconscious physical response to the user's conscious mental intention."[7]"

                                      Typhoon It's 'no turn, cast,' not 'no cast, turn.' He asks players to swing the club back without turning and then to deliberately cast on the way down.

                                        Sarnella I don’t, I get bored at the indoor golf place I work at so I do the drills. I’ll hit a few balls indoors to make sure my numbers are still up. I went to the range twice this year just to make sure I’m still hitting it over fence at the end of the range is all. I hate sending around doing nothing😁