rsvman2 Dan Martin says the exact opposite. So does the Zen golf guy.
Whatever thought works for you is fine. I don't think there is one idea that is universal and works for everybody.

Yeah, there's many ways to swing. Different swing theories etc.. They all work. You just have to find which one is best for you.

Years ago there was an epic debate at a PGA meeting between Jim Flick (hands and arms) and Jimmy Ballard (big muscles of the body).

Marcus of ZEN Golf does say that the swing is a double pendulum though. It has to be to get a forward low point. He gets very good results with his exaggerated weight shifts etc.. Very knowledgeable guy.

But again, all the hands and arms guys like Manuel de la Torre go back to the teachings of Ernest Jones. Ernest Jones lost a leg in WWI. He had to figure out how to play golf with one leg.

His teaching philosophy was 'club focused' and not 'body focused'. You swung the club with your hands and arms and the body reacts to the swinging of the club.

Manuel's father was friends with Ernest Jones and that's how Manuel was introduced to that method. I've found for me that the body reacts to the hands and arms philosophy works best for me.

Opposed to Ballard's idea that the big muscles of the body i.e. legs, torso and shoulders control the swing rather than the smaller muscles of the hands and arms.

For me the hands and arms swing was more relatable to all the other sports I played. Basketball was my main sport. I dribbled and shot the basketball with my hands and arms and never once thought of what my body was doing.

My body just reacted to what my hands and arms were doing.

I also think whether you're a hands and arms focused golfer of a body focused golfer it helps greatly if you're blessed with fast twitch muscles.

Which most of us are not. This is why the average swing speed of a male golfer is in the low 90's mph.

The body focused swing is the dominant method taught today. George Ganka's is a very popular body rotation swing guru right now for example. For me though focusing on the body doesn't work.

The swing happens so fast that if I concentrate on what different parts of my body are doing it results in a nightmare.

    pellmell Yeah. Emulating one of those guys is a sure recipe for success for the average golfer.

    The beauty of the EJ/MDLT swing for me is that it is the simplest way I have found for the average person to play good golf. It has been by far the most intuitive method for me. I am not trying to be Tiger Hogan or Ben Nicklaus or whomever. I simply want to go out, hit the ball well and enjoy myself.

    Having said that, I am sure you can play "high level" golf with this method.

    I believe the single most important factor in playing well is confidence, so do whatever gives you that confidence.

        Subsonic The beauty of the EJ/MDLT swing for me is that it is the simplest way I have found for the average person to play good golf. It has been by far the most intuitive method for me. I am not trying to be Tiger Hogan or Ben Nicklaus or whomever. I simply want to go out, hit the ball well and enjoy myself.

        Having said that, I am sure you can play "high level" golf with this method.

        I believe the single most important factor in playing well is confidence, so do whatever gives you that confidence

        Good points and I feel the same.

        To answer your questions a few posts back. The only thing that changes for me other than specialty shots with MDLT is the length of the club. My woods and irons/wedges have that sameness to them just the playing length changes.

        I have taken some points of Brian Sparks Positive Impact Golf and applied them to MDLT but I feel they both can be intertwined. P.I.G. helped with the mental side and not over swinging more fluidity or souplesse which Manuel preached to me. My left heel depending on the length of swing is lifted and body turn/turn with target focus and weight on front side belt buckle turned at target. At a senior age 73 all of this ability to make a full turn has added slight distance and my body doesn't ache after walking and carrying 18. It's the mental side of being centered ie. E. Jones and not having to think where is this body part or that. It's a timing swing with no thinking. Most would think a timing swing would be hard to repeat but I find it much much easier with good ball flight. The resistance swings are body killers for seniors.

          A benefit of Manuel and other hands / arm guys teachings are not only are they body friendly, but you don’t need a lot of practice time to develop that type of swing.

          As I mentioned the body focused swings are in vogue right now. And there really isn’t much new in golf swing evolution. It’s all been done before. Like other things it’s history we don’t know.

          A hands / arms guy I follow is Mike Malaska who was a disciple of Jim Flick. He’s big on the hands. Milo Lines is a disciple of Malaska’s, but incorporates the squat and turn pivot that is so prevalent in body focused swings.

          Nobody says you can’t take pieces of things from different teachers and use them in your own swing. Another hands / arms guy I started following is from Sweden, Marcus Edblad. His stuff makes a lot of sense to me. Here’s one of his many vids below.

          I’ve incorporated his pushing down of the trail hand into impact with irons with pretty good success. Especially my wedge play.

            scotts33 So, many of us won't agree with the non-believers.

            I would agree that many people would agree or disagree with an agreed-upon agreement. Those in agreement are unique, just like those in disagreement.

            PapaD's musings, circa 2022

                I like watching Monte Scheinblum. His no cast turn video really is amazing. He’s a LD guy so I like his instruction because it’s always going to be speed related. Swinging your arms faster is the key to hitting it longer.

                I’ve picked up some good winter drills from him and a few others to increase strength in my left side and increase arm speed.

                  Subsonic

                  This makes too much sense. lol

                  "The club-focused instruction long advocated by de la Torre and Ernest Jones prior to him has now been validated by new research performed by Dr. Gabriele Wulf at the University of Las Vegas and by Dr. Bob Christina at the University of North Carolina.

                  In their studies players of all skill levels improved faster when given club-focused instruction."It has been recognized that the golf club is a tool and humans are remarkable in their use of tools (hammer, scissors, scalpel, knife, tooth brush, etc.). With none of these, or any other tools, does a person attend to how the body is used. The body action is a subconscious physical response to the user's conscious mental intention."[7]"

                      Typhoon It's 'no turn, cast,' not 'no cast, turn.' He asks players to swing the club back without turning and then to deliberately cast on the way down.

                        Sarnella I don’t, I get bored at the indoor golf place I work at so I do the drills. I’ll hit a few balls indoors to make sure my numbers are still up. I went to the range twice this year just to make sure I’m still hitting it over fence at the end of the range is all. I hate sending around doing nothing😁

                            Serge Gracovetsky, Ph.D
                            The Spinal Engine

                            This describes what happens in a powerful golf swing. When an MDLT swing can produce a 300 yard drive, let me know.

                              I'm currently using the anti MDLT swing I guess. I take it back and my only thought on the downswing is turn my left hip behind me. That pulls everything down and through. If I think about using my arms or hands at all it ruins everything. Really easy on the body and so far very accurate. Even my nephew mentioned that I look like I'm putting no effort into the swing. Just shows anything can work for somebody and there are no absolutes.

                              Subsonic

                              I apologize. When I hear of swing methods, it's a trigger for me. Take for example instructors David Leadbetter and Sean Foley. Under their tutelage, the swings of Tiger Woods, Lydia Ko and Michelle Wie were ruined.

                              Here's a famous quote from Leadbetter in 1997

                              "Right now, Tiger is a one-dimensional player who swings full on practically every shot.....Another thing that will prevent Tiger from winning a major is pressure. There’s a big difference between winning at Las Vegas and winning at Augusta… He has to pay his dues."

                                  pellmell I apologize. When I hear of swing methods, it's a trigger for me. Take for example instructors David Leadbetter and Sean Foley. Under their tutelage, the swings of Tiger Woods, Lydia Ko and Michelle Wie were ruined.

                                  Here's a famous quote from Leadbetter in 1997

                                  "Right now, Tiger is a one-dimensional player who swings full on practically every shot.....Another thing that will prevent Tiger from winning a major is pressure. There’s a big difference between winning at Las Vegas and winning at Augusta… He has to pay his dues.

                                  As you know everyone online has a schtick... try MY swing, try MY swing... always gonna be some crap out there. Some good and some bad. You really have to look at it and make sure is not too far "out there"

                                      Typhoon Someone would buy into it.

                                      That's the difference between Mr. De La Torre and the YouTube schmucks of today. His teaching before the internet have stood the test of time. Read the wiki that Subsonic posted for the validity of Ernest Jones and Manuel De La Torre. Especially for the old curmudgeons on this site who all seem to have some heath issues body wise. Hmmmm, I am 73 with no knee or hip replacement or health torso issues Manuel must have been on to something. I still walk and carry 18. 😆

                                          If you put in the work and read the books, the Jones/MDLT method is one of the better methods that I have seen. I wish I would have discovered it years ago.

                                          Not sure club focused or body focused swings are methods. I think of stack and tilt as a method. Or Leadbetters A swing a method.

                                          Maybe just semantics, but for me to fall in one camp or another it’s what you feel you are doing to swing the club.

                                          I think of no body movement independent of my hands and arms swinging the club. The body just reacts and supports the hands and arms.

                                          And if you concentrate on body movements first and the hands and arms are secondary then that’s a body focused swing.

                                          Now you can have different club focused methods and body focused methods. Just watch YouTube. You’ll see all kinds of methods. Lol

                                          Body focused swings are like 90 percent of what is taught these days.

                                          Regarding distance with the MDLT swing, I have not noticed a drop off. Still poking it out there fairly well. Last week I was 189 out and used a 5 iron to put it in the center of the green. That distance is normal, but putting it on the green is not. 😀

                                          scotts33 I do believe so. It seems as if the left and right misses have lessened in severity as opposed to when I was manipulating (rolling) the clubface through impact.

                                              Subsonic I do believe so. It seems as if the left and right misses have lessened in severity as opposed to when I was manipulating (rolling) the clubface through impact.

                                              Great! Target focus is huge in Jones/De La Torre. Most don't focus on a target playing golf it's just a figment down there in front of them.

                                                  scotts33 @Subsonic Do you find you are more accurate than in the past?

                                                  I was watching one of the MDLT videos and it really reminds me of Monte’s “No turn cast” where is hands and arms to get the club back and then just swing. Montes is very accurate as well. I’ve tried it and a few pros here I know use it and the accuracy is crazy.

                                                    The crazy thing about golf is you never know what epiphany or key will work for you or where it will come from. The problem is most epiphanies don’t last. They’re fleeting.

                                                    The problem with golf also is no golfer at any level plays well all the time. The inconsistency at all levels can be maddening. You find something then lose it. Find it, lose it, find it, lose it. It’s a constant battle.

                                                    And the search for the lasting epiphany seems to never end. For example Larry David had a lesson (You Tuber Adam Porzak) recently and started using a left arm dominant swing and it was a game changer for him.

                                                    Will it last? Look at Pros like Jordon Spieth and Rickie Fowler. Spieth lost it for awhile and Rickie has yet to completely find his way out of lost and found.

                                                    Golfers would take a tip from a stranger in an elevator. Lol

                                                      Sneakylong The problem is most epiphanies don’t last. They’re fleeting.

                                                      Amen. If you get a swing key to last 18 holes, it is eye opening. More than 27, it borders unbelievable. More than 36 - evening news time.
                                                      🏌️‍♂️😢🏌️‍♂️😠