johnnydoom I don't even really care about the LIV tour. I didn't make any attempt to watch it last week. However, I do not think it is an entity of evil either. It is another option. One that I think is likely to fail, but maybe not if enough of the top talent heads for the guaranteed money.

I don't care about it either. I can't imagine ever watching it, but I don't really watch PGA Golf either. I just get a kick out of the faux outrage by the moralists who in my opinion are just jealous that they can't cash in, all while doing business with some even worse regimes.
I'm sure there's a few sincere people like Sneaky who really believe what they spout, but I'm betting 95% would immediately take a job with a Saudi company if it simply doubled their salary

      LBlack14 How did he cheat the system?? Guy hit 49 dingers, his 1st full year, in 1987. Andro was OTC, yes, no?

      That's my question, too. Has he ever admitted to doing real steroids? He had that Andro bottle in full view in his locker. He obviously wasn't worried about anybody seeing it. Any of us could have bought the same stuff OTC. I doubt it even worked, like most supplements.

          garyt1957 Has he ever admitted to doing real steroids?

          https://www.espn.com/mlb/news/story?id=4816607

          Don't know the veracity of the source and I also don't know if he just said something in order to try and make the attention go away. Sorry to continue on this off topic, my intention was only to convey my personal feelings about someone's legacy, not to claim that I was in the majority or that I was right.

            Sneakylong Wonder if Bob owns anything made in China? 🙄

            He was the head announcer at the Olympics held in China. Why didn't he refuse to appear in that murderous, slaving, heinous country? Hmmm? Bob took that NBC money and yakked his head off like he was in the Land of the Free. A perfect chance for Bob to take a stand. Hypocrite much?

                garyt1957 Operative word is "THINK" it's working for them. Sneaky named Hitler trying to sportswash Nazism in the 30's. How did that work for them? I haven't heard anybody say "You know, those Nazis weren't so bad" any time in my life. How did it work for the Soviet Union or China? And it's not going to work for SA. People are stupid, but they're not THAT stupid.

                Maybe you're right. Hard to believe a government with the resources of the Saudis put a guy in charge of billions and he missed the whole, "no one likes the Nazis" thing. Heads are gonna roll over this deal. 😲

                    garyt1957

                    The money came from NBC. He wasn’t paid by China. MSB controls the fund that pays the LIV golfers.

                    Plus the real issue is with the Olympic committee that chooses to hold the games in these countries.

                    As for your continued concern that sportswashing doesn’t work. How do you know it’s not working?There’s a lot people who are ignorant of world affairs and couldn’t tell you who MSB is or Saudi Arabia’s history on human rights / atrocities.

                    Haven’t you ever seen the late night talk shows ask people on the street general knowledge questions? It would amaze you how ignorant many people are.

                    Propaganda works. People believe lies despite overwhelming evidence that they’re lies. Naïveté and stupidity is a thing. PT Barnum was right. Some people are easily fooled.

                    But the real issue isn’t whether sportswashing works or not. It’s that some people are ok with them doing it and are ok with the people taking the money. Unfortunately being paid to look away is nothing new.

                    So in that respect it’s working for them. So yup, we agree to disagree.

                        Sneakylong There’s a lot people who are ignorant of world affairs and couldn’t tell you who MSB is or Saudi Arabia’s history on human rights / atrocities.

                        There sure is, which as I pointed out earlier, has nothing to do with sportswashing. If they don't even know who Saudi Arabia is, how can there be sportswashing?

                        Sneakylong The money came from NBC. He wasn’t paid by China. MSB controls the fund that pays the LIV golfers.

                        Plus the real issue is with the Olympic committee that chooses to hold the games in these countries.

                        If Costas is so moral he easily could have taken a stand and refused to go to China and work the games. Imagine what a spotlight that would have shown on China's human rights record. Even those stupid people who don't know about SA that you talk about would have been informed on China. But what did Moral Bob do? Not a damn thing, he took the money and went. But now he's got the nerve to tell other people to take a stand?

                        And I'm still waiting for that ONE time that sportswashing has worked? Just one.

                            Didn't some sponsors dropped out of the Olympics? Though that might have been related to a missing athlete.

                            Still don't understand PGA allowing players to play in past Saudi sponsored tournamennts and now they don't, even though nothing has really changed regarding human rights

                              Martee Still don't understand PGA allowing players to play in past Saudi sponsored tournamennts and now they don't, even though nothing has really changed regarding human rights

                              I think I read that the PGA Tour was okay with just 1 or 2 individual events, but once the word "league" was brought up they were not happy. Clearly the PGA doesn't care that it's the Saudis, they just care that it could be competition. It's business, but if stirring moral outrage helps their business then they'll get their (we've donated $3B!!) marketing guys on it.

                                  KCee I think I read that the PGA Tour was okay with just 1 or 2 individual events, but once the word "league" was brought up they were not happy. Clearly the PGA doesn't care that it's the Saudis, they just care that it could be competition. It's business, but if stirring moral outrage helps their business then they'll get their (we've donated $3B!!) marketing guys on it.

                                  Exactly. I don't blame the PGA Tour one bit. Their very existence could be at stake. They're going to use what Putin calls the "useful idiots" to fan the outrage so long as it's going in their favor. I don't blame them at all, it's a smart move. Looks like the Euro Tour is caving and is now considering a deal with LIV. So much for their morals

                                    Sneakylong As for your continued concern that sportswashing doesn’t work. How do you know it’s not working?

                                    I can't even imagine how obtaining that proof might go? "Were you at one point aware of SA's human rights atrocities, but are no longer aware based on SA hosting golf events? yes/no" 🤪

                                    Sneakylong There’s a lot people who are ignorant of world affairs and couldn’t tell you who MSB is or Saudi Arabia’s history on human rights / atrocities.

                                    It sure seems like a waste of money (to me, Finance 101) ... to be spending hundreds of millions to try to wash away their reputation from the minds of people who are already unaware of that reputation.


                                        I'm not really seeing this whole thing about the PGA being against what happens politically in Saudi Arabia. They have allowed players to play other tournaments all over the world. I think we need to know the 'rest of the story', as Paul Harvey used to say.
                                        imo, what we are seeing is more of a CNN vs. Trump type thing going on.

                                        The PGA vs. Greg Norman.
                                        But, they can't call him out, so they are doing a coverup/making excuses.
                                        I've paid more attention to the golf being played, and played it myself, through the years, so I really have no clue what the beef is with Norman and the PGA. and I really do not see any problem with guys playing more than 1 tour/circuit, as they have been allowed in the past/still do.

                                        Perhaps it is not even the PGA that has the problem, maybe it is just 1 man. The dictator, as he appears to be.😉

                                          Par4QC

                                          I said this before. The PGA Tour looks at LIV Golf as a direct threat to them. And it is. The PGA Tour cannot compete with the money the Saudi’s are willing to spend. Again, the Saudi fund is worth $600 billion and they make $1 billion a day in oil.

                                          So for the PGA it’s the threat that is the salient point. The morality issue is secondary for them imo. For me it’s the morality issue first.

                                          As I said before, if Elon Musk wanted to spend some of his $500 billion on starting a golf tour then that is the free market at work. No morality issue or sportswashing issue there. Have at it.

                                              Sneakylong They really should just let it go, and get out of the headlines, and let people calm down and just play golf! It's making both sides look bad in public, and really is taking a lot from the game.
                                              After all, exactly who is going to LIV, and with their limited field, how can many more go? Let the older fellas have another choice, and some of the others are no big loss, just 'news fodder' that is now meaningless as they slide down the depth charts. And some of the others have never won, never will on the PGA, and this is a good time for them to 'grab the loot'.

                                              Regardless of the pocketbook. That's for them to think about, not us, or the PGA. Free country/free thinking, and all that.

                                              And, there is a lot more "washing", of different types, going on in THIS country, if everyone opens their eyes. 🤨

                                                  Par4QC

                                                  I respectfully disagree. They needed to take a tough stand early like they did and treat it like the serious threat it is. If they had been wishy washy and taken a more lenient stand there may have been more defections. And the flood gates could’ve burst open. Trying to nip this in the bud was the smart play imo.

                                                  Time will tell how it all plays out. But if Greg Norman is right and the Saudi’s are in it for the long haul then the time to have acted is now.

                                                      Sneakylong I don't know if they had to take a tough stand, but they might as well. They wrote those contracts for a reason and so far no anti-trust lawsuits have hurt them. I think the FTC concluded wrong doing on the Tour's part like 30? years ago, but the Tour wasn't penalized. They easily dodged the caddies lawsuit. No one has ever even slapped them on the wrist for anything as far as I know so they might as well stick to their policies until it stops working.

                                                        https://www.golfmonthly.com/news/rumours-ramp-up-over-next-liv-golf-signings

                                                        "A number of high profile players could be announced by LIV Golf in the coming days as rumours ramp up ahead of the Series' second event in Portland, which starts later this month.

                                                        The rumoured names involved - Brooks Koepka, Collin Morikawa, Viktor Hovland and Xander Schauffele - would send shockwaves through the golfing world as the amount of star names leaving the PGA Tour could turn from a trickle to a flood.

                                                        The Saudi-backed Series was written off by some as offering final pay days to golfers who were slightly past their best, but all that could be about to change with rumours that multiple members of the world’s top 20 are about to sign up, including one four-time Major winner."

                                                          Sneakylong the amount of star names leaving the PGA Tour

                                                          Really? Why does anyone think they are leaving, just because they may play in a different tournament. Have they said they 'are leaving'???

                                                          Thought you were a JB supporter, not a DT rumormonger. 😉

                                                          You are much better than this. 👍 C'mon man!