KCee AKA I'm going to point the figure at you for something I don't like, but please ignore the wrongdoings that I accept. I'm a bit sick of whataboutism as it's own excuse.

I think if one is going to use whataboutisms in a debate it would be better to compare apples to apples. Citing strategic geopolitical alliances countries make and comparing it to an alliance individuals make with countries is weak.

I mean if we didn't strike an alliance with Stalin in defeating Hitler we could all be speaking German right now. lol Pretty big consequences at stake there.

Individual professional golfers trying to make the argument that by accepting sportswashing money is somehow growing the game when in actuality it probably is helping destroy the game is a weak excuse as well.

Mohammed bin Salman Al Saud could give a shit about growing the game. These players are high priced tools being used for a strategic geopolitical reason. Any positive spin they try to justify it with is pure bullshit.

      johnnydoom Please believe me when I say this. I'm not trying to say that you are wrong in regarding the Saudi money as "blood" money. All I'm trying to say is that it should be very hard for most of us to throw stones from the glass house we live in without reflecting on whether or not it is worth breaking our own glass to get to someone else. I jokingly referred to the Amish earlier in this thread, but they are much closer to adhering to this morality over money than most of us, and particularly me as an individual.

        Sneakylong

        Sneakylong bad analogy. We don't have an alliance with Saudi Arabia because we're fighting a war. It's because of oil and money. They've proven again and again they're no ally in fighting terrorism.
        Same for China,it's all about money. We know they're evil and they continually backstabbing us at every turn, but that money is too irresistible. And " whataboutism" is a stupid term to justify morals for one while completely ignoring them for someone else

            johnnydoom I absolutely agree. The thing I'm having a hard time with is the inconsistency in the morality. What KCee points out above. We're talking about individual moralities, not universal moralities. Saudi commits human rights atrocities is not ok, but other countries human rights atrocities are conditional? Saudi can't sponsor a tour, but companies that build their products in China and other low labor rate countries (putting money before morality) can sponsor a tour.

            Yeah, again geopolitics is messy and at times lacks consistency. Using a whataboutism argument in regards to how we deal with China opposed to Cuba is a legitimate debate.

            A geopolitical alliance debate can be legit using whataboutism. But using it comparing countries to individuals is weak imo.

                Sneakylong I mean if we didn't strike an alliance with Stalin in defeating Hitler we could all be speaking German right now. lol

                That's probably the least of the crimes of the US gov't, but okay sure. This is a golf tournament for guys mostly past their prime and people are up in arms over it. Of course the same people are also hyper focused on the Depp-Heard trial so I shouldn't be surprised.

                I will agree you once someone questionable offers you $100MM and you turn it down. Fair?

                    Sneakylong
                    I'm not sure of that at all. For one, Koepka's already accepted "sportswashing" money by having played in at least one SA event previously. Plus the main difference between the players who have gone to LIV, versus those who you listed is AGE (also, McIlroy already gets millions from PGA by being on their board). If a player is good, healthy, and young ... they would be nuts to go over to LIV right now. It's too much of a gamble that it might not be around in a year or two. If there was a guarantee that they would be around for at least 20 years ... who knows?

                    BTW, "sportswashing", per current situation/evidence, may be the least effective move ever. Given SA has hosted tourneys since 2018 ... and yet we're talking about their human rights/atrocity issues more now than ever. It hasn't really washed away anything. I'm not even sure who these fictitious people might be who would just forget about, or not be able to separate a golf tourney event result from a regime's human rights status.

                        Sneakylong A geopolitical alliance debate can be legit using whataboutism. But using it comparing countries to individuals is weak imo.

                        So as an individual you don't have economic dealings with any country that violates your morality standard. You've never worked for a business that profited from working with such countries. You don't accept social security, Medicare, or other compensations from the U.S. government because it is allied with Saudi Arabia.

                          Not my words, but they fit. We should focus on our country and making it better. We also never want to look in the mirror as it's easier to judge someone else.

                          Waxing indignant about the misdeeds of other powers while refusing to look in the mirror is what Vladimir Putin does when he simultaneously condemns American imperialism and wages war to keep a less powerful neighbor in his country’s sphere of influence. Let’s be better than that.

                            Stu1961. Exactly. China hosted the Olympic and I still hate them with every fiber of my being. How stupid would one have to be to be swayed by sportswashing????

                              KCee I will agree you once someone questionable offers you $100MM and you turn it down. Fair?

                              Ha ha. Frank Serpico was a nobody cop who turned down a lot less to keep his honor and legacy intact. 😉 I think you either have integrity or you don't. And if you have a price on your integrity then you really never had any to begin with.

                              How many steaks can Phil eat at one time? lol. I believe he already was in the top 15 on the earnings list for all sports figures. And he probably could've earned ~ $10-15 million a year for the rest of his life.

                              And all by keeping his integrity intact.

                                  KCee Waxing indignant about the misdeeds of other powers while refusing to look in the mirror is what Vladimir Putin does when he simultaneously condemns American imperialism and wages war to keep a less powerful neighbor in his country’s sphere of influence. Let’s be better than that.

                                  We are better than that. We can walk and chew gum at the same time in this country. We can criticize our government for geopolitical alliances and criticize sports figures for selling out and being used by a brutal regime.

                                    A thought that seems relevant in this context: How much money does an individual need before getting more becomes effectively meaningless?

                                    Most of the top players could retire today, never work another day in their life and have the financial resources to live very comfortably. Even mid-level tour players make life-changing amounts of money - for example, Kevin Na has been on Tour for quite a few years, winning a few tournaments but never really being one of the best players at any time, and he's earned more than $35m in prize money. Yes, there are significant expenses involved in playing on tour, but he'll also have sponsorship money coming in. Na won't be getting anything like the 9-figure sums that are reported as being paid to some of the bigger names to sign up with LIV, but it's likely that he'll have received something of the order of at least a couple of good years of Tour earnings, with any prize money in addition to this - a significant amount of money, yes, but does it make any practical difference to the life that he leads?

                                      “I grew up my entire life wanting to play the PGA Tour, wanting to break records, make history, play Presidents Cups, play Ryder Cups. The fact that things like that could potentially get hurt because of some of the people that are leaving, and if more go, it’s just sad. It’s really no other way to say it.”
                                      Justin Thomas

                                      That's all well and good. However, it is not the thoughts of all the kids, unless planted in their minds by elders.
                                      How would you like to have grown up thinking about all of those things, along with being able to have the opportunity to be making mega-millions of money, while 'enjoying' the accomplishment of just getting there?

                                      But, would the elders have 'brainwashed' you, about where the money was coming from, instead of allowing you to decide, when/if you got there?

                                      What if you have the chance to earn those $$$, AND all the awards, at the same time? Without having to kiss sponsors asses, without having to do all the promotions/advertising, etc.. IOW, do your work/play the game, collect money/awards, AND still be able to have a life outside all that, of your own?

                                      The PGA only has issue as to where the money is coming from, (and maybe more so, a dislike of Greg Norman), nothing more than that. And that is wrong. THAT...is telling people what to think!!!

                                      Sneakylong I think you either have integrity or you don't. And if you have a price on your integrity then you really never had any to begin with.

                                      It sounds like you have walked a mile in everyone else's shoes and can judge them all. I have not.

                                          MartinD Who decides enough money is enough? Most PGA players in the top 20 make more in a year then any of us make in a lifetime. But it takes big money to maintain a big lifestyle. Taxes on their ( sometimes multiple) houses can be $50k + a year.
                                          Maintenance on said houses, keeping a private jet in the air, etc.
                                          Who am I to tell them how much they need?