• Equipment

  • Need Honest opinions on a club concept

Bangoman Steve...I was banned silently from fitters buying Geek because they thought I was not defending their position concerning their sales. T hey know you and I are correct they just won't admit it. It was a fitting organization. Not all...but quite a few.

So many truths about this game that become apparent via age and experience. It wasn't that long ago that I could not wait for the new models of everything to come out thinking they were better. I no longer ho around because I think a club is going to help my game. I know I can adapt to whatever is in my bag and shoot to my ability eventually with them because my game is basically find the fairway, advance the ball toward the green (sometimes on the green) and then chip and putt for par or bogey. From the shorter tees I can reach more GIR and land a birdie now and then, but I play to an 11 hdcp with these basics and my drives only go 190 - 200 yds. . I ho clubs now out of boredom and nostalgia. As I age, I become more attracted to older stuff and still believe that the Eye 2 irons were the best design to come from Karsten Solheim. The equipment selling industry peddles so much bullshit (no offense intended) about how much the newer stuff is going to improve your game and it is so exaggerated. Sooner or later, most of the golfers I play with will or have realized that they can play well and enjoy this awesome game with clubs from nearly any era.

    Agree with Uncle Steve. However, I have noticed that the better the player, the more the moving
    weights, etc. matter for fine tuning. Also, if you move a 12g with from the heel to toe, there is
    effectively an apparent 24g change noted. The more you 'let the club do the work', the larger the difference.
    JMHO.

      Eguller

      Yeah, don't get me wrong. I believe that anyone with a solid repeating swing can be helped by getting their stuff tweaked in to optimize their game. I just think that fitting is sometimes oversold, like TMAG marketing. 😉

          sdandrea1 Yeah, don't get me wrong. I believe that anyone with a solid repeating swing can be helped by getting their stuff tweaked in to optimize their game. I just think that fitting is sometimes oversold, like TMAG marketing.

          I had passed the stage of totally sold on the fitting to like your thinking and now I think it is a case by case with the individual.
          You are correct that the mass golfers believing in the numbers, the statistic and the launch monitors. I guess it's for certain "good for their heads " but whether it'll make a noticeable impact for their golf game is totally "by individual case".
          One thing a fitter overlook is that we're not dealing with Iron Byron. A human body's condition changes day to day and minute by minute. It'll even be different after a big meal..... hence no cheese burger at the half way house.

          I think for some, the correct basic fitting from the get go will benefit their golf game; whether the fitting will be worth the investment is totally on the depth of expectation.
          Flex, length of shaft and lie angle for the irons will promote a correct golf swing without the golfer compensating too much at the beginning of the learning.
          Don't believe me ? Take a look at the beautiful golf swing of Fred Couples. Pretty in the sense of the seemingly ease of execution. Very up right ( ruined his back prematurely ). My take is the habit was formed when he was using adult sized golf club at a younger age, the up right swing plane was to compensate for the lie angle to produce a good ball trajectory / flight.
          Anytime a golfer's swing does not need to compensate because of the ill fitted equipment, the longer the golfer could enjoy this game in health.

          I did, observe a lot of the fitters and pros..... fitting golfers for the only reason of bottom line. Most of the guys in the business are honest, the few bad apples are common with any trade under the Sun.

            If you have something that is an actual improvement, bring it on. If its another dual face, bladder filled with gas, specialty grooves, you the nominal bull shit that you have to hype because you know it impacts the real outcome by less than 2%, don't waste the time/$ to produce it. IMO, if you are building components in this day in age, what you bring out had better be GREAT, not really really good, let alone just good, there is a market filled with that already and people do it cheap. If you aren't feeling ready to prove you can take out TM, Callaway, Cobra, etc, don't bother. If you can't PROVE your stuff is better, don't bother. I'm not coming out to buy your new $200 head and have to go find another $150 shaft to put it all together with to try to see if it works. That's not the market now. There are a ton of adapters that allow for super fast shaft swaps, at demo days where you can dial in the combo you like and go. Best part, you can even tweak it once you buy it without specialty equipment. So you have that to overcome, do it big or don't do it.

              DC300

              Agreeing here with all that.
              I would add that if anyone is planning on bringing a new head to market, better be damn sure the price is what the consumer wants it to be.....not what the designer/manufacturer wants it to be.....they, in reality, do not count in the matter. Sound crazy? Just try bringing another $150-200+ head to market. See who wins that game, designer or consumer. We can go into any given golf store, selling drivers, and pick what we want for less than that figure, and it will be a complete club AND perform amazingly. Or, we can go to various websites and snatch up just those heads(brand new) for the same or less than a component co. is selling theirs for.

              If you cannot price it to sell to the MAJORITY.......why try?
              If you're only going to be within 5 yds.+/- of the Majors, you damn well better be way under their price.
              Have a look at WITB of these forum members nowadays; not nearly so many components as in past years. Esp. drivers.

                I don't play like I used to, but at 52 Y/O, I can still get past 110 SS. I honestly haven't hit a head after 2006 that does anything for me. Yes, there is adjustability, but as far as forgiveness, etc, I just don't see that much difference. I have a 975D Titleist from 1997 that I pull out every now and then and it puts a smile on my face. It is still the most solid feeling metal driver I have ever hit, and I can still squeeze a 300 yard drive out of it. IMHO, the ball is what has changed the game. Any premium ball I can lay 275 all day long with that Titleist, but the newer heads go farther due to the thinner face and CG for higher launch and lower spin than that Titleist. BTW, it is a 6,5* with a DG S300 and original cord grip.

                I do want to try a Powerbuilt AF1 from a few years ago.

                All I can say to a Club builder would be to make it appealing at address without being a mailbox on a shaft. Have adjustability to 4 loft/lie, 8.5-12.5 and face angle, 3 open to 3 closed. Put 4 adjustable weights that slide front to back, side to side and cannot fall off. Make it solid feeling with some bulge and roll. Come in at 440 CC with an anti glare matte black face, crown, sole. No scoring lines and a small, unobtrusive alignment mark on top.

                My $.02

                These are all great comments, but given the USA limits on design spec, what is left to make breakthrough improvement on? Every time I see an OEM claiming they have revolutionary design (Callaway Epic?), I just see another little tweak. Frank Smith said it in his book- since the advent of titanium and graphite, adjustability has been the only really new science.

                  sdandrea1

                  Material. Is the next big change.

                  Titanium and multi material had it's glory just like the steel and fortified, reinforced steel before it.
                  Not just for the drivers. Golf balls will go back to one piece like the Gutta-percha ball with the ability to change it's property for different swing speed.
                  In a few decades, most everything will be "printed" by a printer instead of the traditional ways of preparing. That might even include the food we take.

                  It's a bit away and I certainly would not see this happening. However, it's already in the works to make it a reality in the not so distant future.

                      Release
                      I agree. But if the COR of .83 remains, what will the new material give us? We already know that making a club ultra light may or may not help a player. Now if the OEMs convince USGA on bifurcation , we could see some more room for innovation.

                          I agree with brsmith that a nicer-looking clubhead that is slightly smaller but has the same performance would be a plus. 400 or maybe 420 without sacrificing MOI would be a welcome change, at least for me.

                          sdandrea1

                          Like everything else. Perhaps the governing rules of the game will also be modified to certain extent in the future.

                          How old is this game ? How old is the Religion ? If Catholic Church could change it's guidance after thousands of year, so will the game of golf after a few hundred years. If will morph and change, or perhaps a HYBRID form of this game will appear.
                          The ideal hybrid model is to take less than 3 hours to finish. Cost less and most certainly takes up less real estate to get similar experience. Virtual reality golf ?
                          Come to think of it, one of my favorite show , The Star Track had projected many of today's invention decades ago. Like the smart phone, artificial simulation,...... So a virtual reality is not that far fetched. Virtual gaming goggles is on the market already. In real estate , a buyer off shore in another country could put on a pair of virtual goggles and tour the interested property to have a tour as close as being there, walk from room to room, up and down the stairs......

                          Nothing could replace the real thing, However, in the big picture with more population and lomoted resources in the future, the game might suffer just being in the way of the progression. The real game might return to a side show belonging to the few privileged.

                          We are the fortunate ones to be able to enjoy it.

                            In this day and age it's all about performance and price.....how much bang can you REALLY get for your buck?
                            As far as copying someone else's design,with all the gimmicks,materials used etc.,it's pretty hard to come up with
                            something that is totally earth shatteringly different that hasn't been done before.
                            I say give it a shot, 'cause you never know what a golf ho will bite on! 🙂

                            And of course there is this:

                            Charles H. Duell was the Commissioner of US patent office in 1899. Mr. Deull's most famous attributed utterance is that "everything that can be invented has been invented."

                            So, who knows?

                            LogicalOne

                            Tom Wishon also wrote a piece about 40g minimal weight having an effect.
                            I think he was talking about his driver head design that had the internal moveable weight.
                            Golfsmith head maybe?

                              I am not arguing the math. Head rotation thru impact area and the amount of weight to increase or delay same doesn't take all that much. A slight delay is all that is needed. Same with front to back sliding weights to influence L/A. It's the degree of influence that determines the amount of weight.

                              And that other guy you mentioned isn't he the advocate of shorter is better and yet now that theory is out the window as it's all about 2" overlength wedges on Sl irons? Just sayin.

                                Theory works ONLY if the hands swing the golf club stays constant . The base for all the numbers changes then, it would be pointless for those numbers.
                                If I have a choice between a healthy body and the most advanced technology applied to the golf clubs within the conforming rules.
                                I'd take a healthy body and swing a set of 50 years old golf club any day.