I'm generally confused by what happened here...

PIGDivot

http://jacksonville.com/sports/golf/2016-06-07/story/penalty-costs-young-player-spot-us-open-0#

From the article..."Lee, seventh in the World Junior Rankings, received a two-stroke penalty on the 11th hole during the second round after using a club to tamp down a pitch mark that his ball left when landing behind the green.

According to golf rule 13-2, players are not allowed to repair such marks off the green. "

So what I am reading here, is that I am not allowed to repair divots on golf courses after shots? Or am I totally misreading this rule, which is stated as below...

13-2. Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play

A player must not improve or allow to be improved:

the position or lie of his ball,
the area of his intended stance or swing,
his line of play or a reasonable extension of that line beyond the hole, or
the area in which he is to drop or place a ball,
by any of the following actions:

pressing a club on the ground,
moving, bending or breaking anything growing or fixed (including immovable obstructions and objects defining out of bounds),
creating or eliminating irregularities of surface,
removing or pressing down sand, loose soil, replaced divots or other cut turf placed in position, or
removing dew, frost or water.
However, the player incurs no penalty if the action occurs:

in grounding the club lightly when addressing the ball,
in fairly taking his stance,
in making a stroke or the backward movement of his club for a stroke and the stroke is made,
in creating or eliminating irregularities of surface within the teeing ground or in removing dew, frost or water from the teeing ground, or
on the putting green in removing sand and loose soil or in repairing damage (Rule 16-1).
Exception: Ball in hazard - see Rule 13-4.

I am seriously confused by all of this. What did this kid do that was wrong?

PIGDivot

Hypothetical for you to ponder. At the course I play a lot, if you yank a tee shot left or right you end up in a field of pine trees, with pine cones and pine straw all around your ball, and where you stand. So in reading this rule, if I am reading it correctly, I'm not allowed to move a bunch of pine straw or pine cones where I would create my stance at? And I can only remove loose impediments around my ball, but not where I stand?

Are pine cones and pine straw loose impediments that can be removed, providing my ball doesn't move?

Spuzz

PIGDivot So in reading this rule, if I am reading it correctly, I'm not allowed to move a bunch of pine straw or pine cones where I would create my stance at? And I can only remove loose impediments around my ball, but not where I stand?

I believe this is correct as well.
It is always mentioned at the Masters on the 13th hole whenever anybody hits into the trees straight off the tee.

Spuzz

Pitch marks and divots are not the same thing.
That should clear that up.

PIGDivot

Spuzz Pitch marks and divots are not the same thing.
That should clear that up.

I'm still not clear about what he did though. Is this something where you hit the ball, and then go back and repair a pitch mark, and it's a penalty if you do it after you've already hit the ball, or is this something he was doing PRIOR to hitting the ball?

Also, and since I know Jacksonville was a mud fest, if he hits his ball and it's in or right in front of where his ball created a big crater, are you telling me he has to hit the ball off the green with that crater affecting how his ball is hit?

Zack

PIGDivot Don't touch/repair the pitch mark until you've played your shot. The kid didn't.

Spuzz

After reading the article again, it seems that the pitch mark he fixed (more than once btw) is behind his ball, likely due to the ball backspinning out of it's own pitchmark.

Therefore, he is improving his intended line of swing by smoothing out the area (likely to putt it)
That is my best guess.

He can fix it after he's done, same as you would with a divot or bunker or whatever.

swinnea

Article also mentions his playing partner had already mentioned it to him before reporting it.

PIGDivot

swinnea Article also mentions his playing partner had already mentioned it to him before reporting it.

Language barrier? Misinterpretation of an already confusing rule?

mcavoy

Paging Duffy Waldorf!

ode

mcavoy that waldorf one was Rediculous imo, he basically tamped down the edge of an old divot in front and to the right of his ball....if he hits it over that divot he misses the green by 50 yds, bht gets called for a penalty. No common sense in that ruling.

This one I'm nit so sure.

Spuzz

PIGDivot swinnea Article also mentions his playing partner had already mentioned it to him before reporting it.
Language barrier? Misinterpretation of an already confusing rule?

None of that, imo.

Denial of the situation, typical of a 17 year old
(and Tiger Woods as well)

swinnea

PIGDivot swinnea Article also mentions his playing partner had already mentioned it to him before reporting it.

Language barrier? Misinterpretation of an already confusing rule?

Seems to be attending a pretty fancy prep school and golf academy, but I can't say how well he speaks English.

I also think from the initial description he repaired a pitch mark between the ball and the hole. He landed behind the green.

jamez

From what I read, he was repairing pitch marks behind his ball which would improve the area of his intended swing.

jamez

In case anyone cares I found another explanation:

After hitting his approach over the back of the par-4 11th green, Lee violated Rule 13-2, Improving Lie, Area of Intended Stance or Swing, or Line of Play.

Because Lee’s ball was off of the green, as was the pitch mark he patted down, playing partner Tim Wilkinson called a penalty on him. Were the pitch mark that Lee fixed on the green, there would be no penalty assessed.

Apparently he was seen doing this several times before he was called on it.

Release

jamez Apparently he was seen doing this several times before he was called on it.

Exactly.

Repair after the stroke is no problem.
He had flirted with rules several times prior in the same tournament. I'm surprised no one even talked to him about this from either his mentor or the rules officials.

Weirfan

He broke the rule, as others above have pointed out. Nothing confusing about it .

darpar

Just another dumb golf rule....you can fix a pitch mark on the green but not off on say the fringe until your ball is on the putting green.
Same with it's ok to remove sand from the putting surface but you can't remove sand from the fringe if it's on your putting line.....a couple of lame/useless rules! IMO

fnufan

darpar

You don't have 'putting line' ( ie line of putt) unless your ball is on the green.

fnufan

PIGDivot

And I can only remove loose impediments around my ball, but not where I stand?

Are pine cones and pine straw loose impediments that can be removed, providing my ball doesn't move?

You can remove loose impediments from anywhere except from a bunker or water hazard. Pine cones and straw are loose impediments

JIMENGAZ1

Couple of Notes on and around the green.

One is not allowed to repair anything on one's line when off the green EXCEPT for ball marks and hole plugs that are on your green. A divot hole or unrepaired ball mark on the fringe or near the green should be left as is until you have completed the hole. Then go back and replace the divot or flatten the pitch mark.

An exception is made for repairs made which are very unlikely to affect play. For example, you are 100 yards away and waiting for the green to clear. I

" Nevertheless, you'll occasionally come across spike marks on the green and be tempted to press them down. DON'T: That act constitutes a two-stroke penalty."

You can remove loose impediments. Things such as sand, soil, stones, twigs, insects, and goose droppings. You can remove these things any way you want, provided you don't press anything down into the turf or test the surface.

You can repair those little craters created when a ball hits the green.

You can repair old hole plugs created when the superintendent's staff move the cup from location to another.

You can place your putter down in front of your ball when you address it (remember, don't press down).

You can touch the line in the process of measuring, lifting or replacing your ball or to remove a moveable
obstruction such as a coin left on the green by the group in front of you.

Once you putt out, provided you aren't aiding a fellow competitor with his or her putt, you can tap down spike marks, fix a damaged hole (sometimes a part of the circumference caves in) or push the hole liner back down (they sometimes get pulled up when the flagstick is removed.

fnufan

ode

You will see that the wording of the decision has been revised. It wouldn't happen now.

PA-PLAYA

Sometimes we look at rules based on how we perceive them. But the rules aren't established on perceptions of intent or incidentals. They are established to account for the occasional gray areas... those situations where perhaps tapping down a pitch mark from the fringe 20 feet away from your ball lying in the fringe could be legitimately confused with the perceived liberty for someone else to suddenly tap down all pitch marks in the fringe, including the one that might be two inches in front of their ball.

I hate playing from a divot in the fairway, but I understand why they're not considered ground-under-repair and must be played as it lies. The definition of what does or does not constitute a divot suddenly has to be factored in and explained, and there would undoubtedly be incidents of doubt whether a spot in the fairway was from an old divot that hasn't fully grown in or just a natural depression of the soil.