puttnfool

In the 2 that I have, yes. Typically the face opens as the loft decreases and vice versa or at least that illusion is there.

      puttnfool I thought it was a sleeve that fit between the shaft and head that "altered" the driver loft/face angle.

      Along the same lines, I read an article once (by Wishon, I think) that basically stated that unless you're hovering the driver at address, "adjusting" the specs doesn't help you any because the driver is gonna lay on the ground the same in any configuration.

      In most models that sleeve is epoxied to the shaft tip, so when you adjust the head/sleeve orientation, you rotate the shaft/grip, yes.

      Wishon may have been referring to the original TM R? model that had a pentagon shaped "knob" on the driver sole. You would change the orientation of that pentagon so that when you laid the sole of the driver on the ground, it would open or close the face. Something that you could merely do with your grip, BTW.

        sdandrea1 no reason you couldn't pull and Flo after finding the correct f.a./setting. But then this is a fitting issue more than it is a spine/nbp/Flo issue. Fitting the loft by adjusting the f.a. is the wrong way to go IMO. I want the driver sitting correctly to suit my eye (slightly open) when it's naturally soled. I don't want to monkey with the f.a. to get to where I like it by turning it before addressing the ball. Adj. drivers don't throw out Flo, quite the opposite, you now have tons more variables where you wouldn't ever know if Flo made any appreciable difference, every adjustment is an adjustment away from Flo and also a f.a. adj. At the same time. What I did with f6 is find the f.a. and flight I liked the most, pulled, flo,d and reinstalled. Critical to get the f.a. correct with the right loft,not getting an ill fit f.a. just to get to a certain loft.

        Oh yeah, did I see a diff after flo=no, but I know it's done and nothing is left to chance, and all whammies are ruled out. Only on a poorer quality shaft does Flo make an appreciable difference, I've seen it on some shafts as recent with an Apollo black steel (Hireko,s stepless shaft painted black with a gawdy logo). I aligned none of the shafts (no nbp or Flo) and went logo down on the set to avoid seeing any of that gawdy logo. All were fine, less the 7i, which I could not turn over to save my life and most shots hung right. Pulled shaft, found nbp and aligned and walaaa. No more rights and could turn over right to left. It can absolutely make a difference, but as I stated it's only on a poorer quality shaft, which may simply be a QC issue, and ultimately I'm guaranteeing no whammies!

            ode ultimately I'm guaranteeing no whammies!

            So, you never hit bad shots anymore? I need some of that...

                backinit Typically the face opens as the loft decreases and vice versa

                You sure that's not backwards? Opening the face angle should increase loft.

                • ode replied to this.

                    puttnfool lol but not due to a poorly constructed and/or aligned shaft. Was easy to see with this example as all other irons in the set did not behave the same way.

                        puttnfool if we are talking adj drivers then bn is correct the lower the lift setting the more open the f.a. gets.....they are relying on the golfer returning the driver to square....that's how they can say a loft adjustment is being made, when in reality it's a f.a. adjustment.

                          ode I think it likely had much to do with the part of your swing between your ears. You hit a couple of bad shots with the 7i and decided there was something "wrong" with that club. You took it apart and "fixed" it and then your mind believed it was all better so you hit better shots with it. Doesn't matter that the placebo worked... it just worked. Congrats.

                              ode

                              Chad, you still hit bad shots with a properly aligned shafts, right. You also hit good shots with improperly aligned shafts, right? I'm sure I have, because I've never flo'd or spined a shaft. How can you tell the bad shot is a result of the shaft alignment and vice versa?

                                  puttnfool nope, this was over several rds., and weeks of playing with the same set. That's what it takes to actually make a decision on gear imo, this way you are past any honeymoon, any preconceived notions of looks, feel, hype, etc.

                                    sdandrea1 lol, of course, but when the majority of your center face contacts are doing something other than what your other center face contacts are doing within the same round and every round after that and that ball flight is not consistent with your miss, which is a hook or a pull, sometimes both, then something is amiss. Again not one or two rds, several, weeks, which for me is 20 or more rds. I'm not here to pimp flo, but to point out that whammies exist and this was an example of it....and is and will be the reason why I always align. I could care less if anyone else does it, and as I stated with my f6, after flo there was no appreciable difference. So I'm not blindly a proponent of flo. Super consistent shafts don't need it, but super consistent shafts have a bad apple from time to time. That's all, carry on😉

                                      I'd buy more into it if I thought my swing was really, really repeatable. When my iron shots misbehave, they never seem to be with one club, and I can usually troubleshoot it back to one of my common mistakes. The other thing that causes my doubt is the number of quality shots and good rounds I have had with pure junk in my bag.

                                        Makes you wonder the pros shot all those fantastic rounds with hickory shafted, persimmon-headed woods and little rusty metal irons? I guess I'm just old school.

                                        The Callaway dual cog adapter does not change the shaft orientation. So....check the spine, flo, whatever
                                        and then install it with the orientation you wish. Any change to the adapter ( Draw, open, etc.) will not
                                        change your shaft set up.

                                        Off you go.....

                                        • ode likes this.

                                        backinit With all the shaft spinning and flo'ing that I've read about (and done myself) on the "old site", how do you address installing new shafts on adjustable drivers? I am starting to lean towards the snake oil camp. I mean you can install the shaft in the adapter at neutral setting at flo, but then discover that maybe that setting isn't really the best for you and you need to make an adjustment.

                                        I have wondered for years about how OEM adjustable drivers off the rack might have an issue with spines, flo et al.

                                        It is all about the shaft. Get a shaft with little or no spines and alignment changes are not an issue. I have a Taylormade M2 that I installed a UST Mamiya ATTAS 5 International Series 1000 and it is sweet. I ran it through my NF2 and spines are negligible which means flex is consistent regardless or orientation in the head. I did buy the head only so I can't comment on the stock TM shaft.

                                        I am not saying that all OEM adjustable drivers might have an issue with adjustments but shafts with large spines will vary in flex with different orientations in heads. Hopefully the OEM companies have taken this into consideration with the adjustable head drivers. Perhaps someone who has pulled a shaft on one of these could comment.

                                            sdandrea1 The other thing that causes my doubt is the number of quality shots and good rounds I have had with pure junk in my bag.

                                            But, we've never read about any under Par rounds here. So, you're still making a lot of bad shots. Even when you shoot a 75.

                                            Spineing/not spineing, bad swings/good swings, perfect strikes/mishits, good weather/bad weather......any little thing can contribute to a good round or a so-so round. I'd leave nothing to chance, as Chad says.

                                            There are probably only a handful of Pros that will say if their shafts have been spined/FLOed. They also are probably the only ones that do know if they were done. Their clubmakers would be the ones to be asked; and if I were one of them, their shafts definitely would all be aligned exactly the same. Whether I believed in it or not! If there is even the remotest of possibilities of it helping, and costs nothing, it should be done, imo.

                                                Rickochet shafts with large spines will vary in flex with different orientations in heads

                                                Few here knew of this. All who read this now know, and should realize why we spine/FLO.

                                                  Par4QC

                                                  I completely agree that there is no reason NOT to do it. I'm just not convinced that I am consistent enough to benefit from it. If I had the equipment, I might do it just to learn how.

                                                  BTW, I shot a 68 (3 under) last year in a casual round with a buddy, playing the ball down, USGA rules. It was mostly due to an excellent driving, chipping and beyond-my-wildest-dreams putting day. I had a stock set of Adams graphite shafted hybrid irons in the bag. I have had a LOT of low rounds with old Eye 2 irons in my bag 😉

                                                      Spuzz that's because most people will believe anything you tell them even if it doesn't make sense.