Sneakylong An well know actor gets caught with a prostitute. His image goes in the toilet. He hires a public relations outfit to clean up his image. Does all kinds of good deeds to try and get peoples minds off his bad behavior. Does it work?

Not even close to the same thing. We like to forgive individuals. Multiple examples of celebrities doing drugs, prostitution etc that they come back from without doing any good deeds. Mike Tyson might be a rapist yet now he's loved. Robert Downey Jr was an addict, now he's Iron Man, etc.

Sneakylong And where the money comes from makes a difference for many. Would you work for someone knowing that the money they paid you came from drugs, human trafficking or any other illegal gain?

Another false flag. The Saudi money is not illegal gains, they're riches are perfectly legal and the US is one of their biggest customers.

And no, we'll never agree

        Sneakylong Geopolitics is ugly ain’t it?

        But back to whether people believe ridiculous things like ‘sportswashing’. Hypothetically speaking, a pathologically lying, failed businessman grifter / con artist, reality tv show host with no government experience runs for president.

        Can he get elected? Is that harder to believe than a country with human rights abuses trying to cleanse their image with sports?

        Which one is more ridiculous for people to fall for? Lol

        Again, for the tenth time, show me ONE instance where it's worked.

            Stu1961 I think you misunderstand what I meant by it's the whole issue. We're simply talking does sports washing work? Sneaky says the real issue with sportswashing is that the countries that do it think it's working and whether it works or not is a non issue. That's where I said it's the whole issue. Who cares if they think it works if it doesn't? Let them blow their money.
            My comment had nothing to do with the PGA and LIV, it's about sportswashing in general.

              Could this be?

              "Hideki Matsuyama is the latest PGA Tour professional linked with LIV Golf, as rumors suggest there is already a finalized contract for the 2021 Masters champion"

              Maybe not big lossin USA for fans, but I believe he is known globally.

              Of course a number of pros have been rumored to be jumping ship that arent or havent.

              Sneakylong - observation. You've used a straw man deflection when I've seen you point this out when others have used the same deflect in civil discourse discussions with you. Yes sir, geopolitics is ugly and often exposes each of us to hypocritical words and actions. I'm guilty.

                  mikeintopeka

                  Here’s the best non straw man singular argument that I think makes the best case.

                  Again, having the ex PGA players themselves selling the propaganda of the Saudi’s.

                  The rhetoric of them saying that growing the game of golf including free golf for women etc. in order to try and soften the Saudi’s bad image on human rights atrocities is the very definition of sportswashing.

                  There’s no argument on their attempt to do this. The question seems to now be are they getting enough bang for their buck in doing this.

                  And the argument that it actually might be doing the opposite is a good thing if true.

                  The only other difference of opinion is some don’t care if bad actors sponsor sports on a large scale. Many are able to justify their opinion with whataboutisms as was mentioned in the article on whether the attempt on sportswashing may be doing just the opposite.

                  I think this has all been hashed to death with neither side changing any minds. Which leaves the only real question. Which is how the disruption of the Saudi’s deep dive into professional golf with LIV shake out in the end?

                  And it’s anyone’s guess how all this will turn out.

                      azgreg
                      Not even LIV wants the excessive annoying chatterbox on their tour.
                      See image post above.
                      LOL

                        garyt1957 We like to forgive individuals.

                        Look at Rory.
                        Cuts friendships due to LIV golf, but still hangs around with Tiger whenever he can.

                          Sneakylong I’ll go out today and do a random survey and report back.

                          As big a hard on as you have for the issue, I'd think you'd have at least one on the tip of your tongue.

                              garyt1957

                              We’re going to Chick-Fi-A for lunch. I’ll ask the person if getting sports stars to talk up a country with human rights atrocities while being paid outrageous sums helps soften their image. Lol

                              Assuming they know what the word atrocitiy means.😂 But the more apropos question is would you watch a sporting event that was sponsored by a country with human rights atrocities regardless of propaganda.

                              Again, assuming they know what propaganda means. Lol

                                  Sneakylong Again, having the ex PGA players themselves selling the propaganda of the Saudi’s.

                                  The rhetoric of them saying that growing the game of golf including free golf for women etc. in order to try and soften the Saudi’s bad image on human rights atrocities is the very definition of sportswashing.

                                  I have to admit, after the problems with all 'nationwide' media the past 2+ years, I do not watch much, only read blurbs on the internet when they might catch an eye.
                                  So, I will ask if there is any recent, meaning let's say, in the past year or so, of proof of these atrocities still going on over there? Or any proof that things are, in fact, getting much better. Not heresay, not propaganda, from either side. Facts of change?

                                      Par4QC Or any proof that things are, in fact, getting much better. Not heresay, not propaganda, from either side. Facts of change?

                                      Yes. I’ll try to look up a few for you.

                                        Sneakylong We’re going to Chick-Fi-A for lunch. I’ll ask the person if getting sports stars to talk up a country with human rights atrocities while being paid outrageous sums helps soften their image. Lol

                                        Assuming they know what the word atrocitiy means.😂 But the more apropos question is would you watch a sporting event that was sponsored by a country with human rights atrocities regardless of propaganda.

                                        Again, assuming they know what propaganda means. Lol

                                        I notice you keep sidestepping the question. Let me answer it for you, no you can't or you would have answered it. That's why I think it's nothing to get upset about.

                                            garyt1957

                                            Sportswashing is an attempt to mask the real issue. So they’re closely related. Whether it works is a red herring. And there’s much to get upset about.

                                            Here’s another straw man analogy lol to highlight the different camps. John Gotti was a ruthless killer. Nevertheless some thought he wasn’t that bad because he did a lot of good things in his neighborhood. Image cleansing at it’s finest. Lol

                                            One being every 4th of July he did a big shindig in his neighborhood complete with a huge fireworks display.

                                            In one camp you had people refuse to go to Gotti’s block party because they didn’t want to show appreciation for a killer.

                                            Then you had the other camp with people justifying going by saying there’s lots of killers in the world and besides they liked fireworks. Lol

                                            I know what camp I’m in. 😉 Time to take a break from the Hamster wheel.😄

                                                Sneakylong Sportswashing is an attempt to mask the real issue. So they’re closely related. Whether it works is a red herring. And there’s much to get upset about.

                                                I just can't understand how you can say whether it works or not is a red herring. Why get upset about something that doesn't even work? And you must agree it doesn't work or you'd name at least one time where it has.

                                                Sneakylong Then you had the other camp with people justifying going by saying there’s lots of killers in the world and besides they liked fireworks. Lol

                                                And yet they still knew he was a killer, it's not like his block party erased his past image, people just chose to take his money, food and entertainment and then when they left they still knew he was a killer.

                                                    We preach from such high and lofty positions sometimes, conveniently forgetting our own indiscretions.

                                                    But it's natural for humans to elevate their own righteousness at the expense of others. If it's natural for humans, then it must also be natural for nations consisting of humans. We love to compare ourselves against the worst of the worst sometimes. It makes us feel good about ourselves so we can go on justifying our behavior.

                                                    We can claim the high road all we want. But history tells a far different story of a nation that has (on occasion) needlessly stuck its nose into other worldly affairs and caused unspeakable tragedy and suffering. Being "less evil" doesn't mean evil doesn't exist.

                                                    It's good to be reminded sometimes that we too live in houses made of glass.

                                                      PA-PLAYA

                                                      Must’ve missed my post on this. Want a good history lesson on this countries transgressions regarding human rights atrocities, watch Netflix’s Who We Are: A History of Racism in America.

                                                      Really excellent. Can’t recommend it enough. We have a horrendous history regarding human rights. But we’ve progressed. And historically we haven’t always lived up to our rhetoric. But eventually we’ve tried to expand human rights although with many setbacks.

                                                      So, although not without fault. No need for this country to feel self righteous. No country has done more in fighting for human rights around the world than this country. And we should always be on the side of expanding human rights.

                                                      However, thru happenstance we have a Supreme Court hell bent on reversing decades of advancements in human rights. And we have one of our two political parties embrace a cult like figure that espouses anti democratic values and wants to take the country towards illiberalism / autocracy.

                                                      So we shouldn’t take for granted what we’ve gained. Again, it’s a constant struggle. Arguing over a thing called sportswashing will pale in comparison.