Non-Traditional Golf Swing Discussion

scotts33 · 2018-09-08T18:16:05+00:00

Since, there seems some interest in non-traditional methods of the golf swing. Here are 3 that I have tried or used. There are more but these three I feel...

Tinker

What is supossed to generate the power without hip turn and leg drive?

Sneakylong

Tinker

It's an arm swing. There is no exaggerated hip turn or leg drive. Watch Mr. X (1atomicgolf videos) and Matt Gray (MMI Golf) and you'll see plenty of power doing CL. These two are high swing speed players who crush the ball over 300 yards. Much of the swing science these days advocates an arm swing with the lower body supporting the upper body.

That said JH advocates what he calls 'soggy legs' keeping your knees flexed thru impact. Watch the some of the videos on their channels and maybe you'll get more answers.

It's really not new. Percy Boomer and later Bob Toski and Jim Flick were saying the same thing (body supports the arms). Try hitting a driver while on your knees. You'll be surprised by how far you hit it with no lower body involved at all.

Check out Tony Luczac who is getting his PHD in how the body moves in the golf swing. I forget the actual scientific name. He's an arms first swing guy also, but with the science to back it up.

Sneakylong

garyt1957

You have to work that out as far as where you're aimed. Each individual needs to find that out for themselves. But again, if you're hitting it way right try closing your club face more at address. And I'm no expert, I just know about it from watching the videos and corresponding with both JH and Phillips. In all honesty I doubt I'll be able to adopt this method. But IMO the theory makes sense.

The problem is as we know taking the theory and putting it into practice.

scotts33

Tried hitting small bucket at the range 7i with CL. I believe I have the protocols fairly correct, weak grip, nose at 5 o'clock, shoulders closed, etc. Like Gary I hit everything to the right. Tried various foot and shoulder alignments all shots to the right. Possibly I have to much forward shaft lean breaking more traditional habits but it would seem if you closed the iron face angle which I did this would correct some? Unsure if I will keep playing with CL. If I could straighten out ball flight or have some input on how to do it then I would fool with it more. Impacts and distance though pushed straight right (not slices) were decent.

Also note Phillips and Hensby's clubs look longer than standard. Also unsure if playing length/lie factor into CL?

The video shows the Moe move set up traditional ball position and then reset.

Sneakylong

scotts33

No forward shaft lean unless you want to hit a fade. Phillips has a video and hits a fade with forward shaft lean. Get the shaft more perpendicular and try different alignments with a more closed face.

I'm just an expert in what you're supposed to do, doesn't mean I can do it myself either. I found the same issues as you and that's why I moved the ball not so far back. Found it much easier to get aligned properly.

I mentioned earlier that Phillips had Cobra SL irons and JH is getting Cobra SL irons with 10 degrees upright lie angles which tells me he will adopt Dechambeau's ulnar deviated wrist angle set up.

scotts33

Sneakylong I caught myself and stopped any forward shaft lean. I still hit shots to the right with no shaft lean. Might need to video myself to see what I am doing. If I close the face much more it will be pointed left. Do you need large offset clubs?

Ball more forward I am sure I wouldn't hit it as far right but doesn't that defeat the purpose of playing ball position off back foot?

I am a golfer that will question conventional wisdom so I could learn CL I would think.

Sneakylong

scotts33

Close the face. Don't worry if it's pointing left. That's what you need with such an in to out path to hit a draw. JH has a closed face at address. Try aligning more left also. At address you should have a very cupped left wrist (extension) because of the perpendicular shaft. I notice JH sometimes forgets to do that and he has some shaft lean. Keep experimenting.

If you watch the evolution of this swing (yes it's all documented on video well over a year) JH does all kinds of foot alignments etc. Originally he had a more open stance, then more closed. JH fidgits like Lee Trevino so it's sometimes hard to see where his feet end up. It's fun to watch some of the older vids, but you'll save a lot of time sticking with the more recent ones.

Phillips dumbed down the swing to make it less complicated which is nice. JH and Phillips seem to be always tinkering (Phillips nickname is Tinker) so I suspect there will be more options with CL in the near future.

scotts33

Sneakylong Good info. What one think is too much is not enough. You did a lot of research saving guys like Gary and I from doing a lot. I will watch more videos. There is a lot out there.

Sneakylong

One more thing that may be of importance for anyone trying this swing. JH uses more of a left arm dominant swing with CL. He pushes it back with the left arm and pulls down with the left arm. His latest video show this, but he has mentioned this in prior videos. Phillips doesn't mention this as far as I know though.

Could be why it may not work for me as I'm a right arm dominant swinger. One caveat needs to be said. Both JH and Phillips are very hyped up about this method. I'd tamp down expectations. There is no magic swing out there as we should know. But as golfers we're always searching for the real epiphany that will last round after round after round.

Is CL the answer? For some it might just be. We know that it is for JH, Mr. X, Bill Phillips and Matt Gray. But again these four golfers were very good to begin with. They're all scratch players with JH and Bill Philipps teaching golf and teaching different methods for many years.

garyt1957

Sneakylong I've seen a video of Phillips where he says he using a right arm underhand move at the ball. He was really striping a hybrid in that video. There's so many videos out there, and that can be a problem cause JH and Bill seem to have some different ideas. JH seems to have a way more radical stance.

scotts33

Question for Sneakylong. Have you used any non-traditional equipment with CL? It would seem longer and more upright lie ala single plane would lead to what Bill and John are trying to do with single plane/more ulnar deviation.

I have some Sterling test clubs (5i, 7i, 9i, PW & SW that I can tweak to experiment. Have to figure out correct length/lie for me personally. Do John or Bill use larger non-tapered grips?

Sneakylong

scotts33

I have not. Again, JH has said he is getting Cobra SL irons that will be 10 degrees upright. That tells me he will use a DeChambeau set up (huge ulnar deviation) when he gets the clubs. He's been talking about getting them for awhile now so who knows when he'll actually get them.

Phillips did have a set of Cobra SL irons, but is using a set of older Callaways now. My guess is you'll see him getting another set of Cobra SL irons with more upright lie angles because he is setting up with ulnar deviation now.

Have not heard anything about the grips. Also if you subscribe to there channels you can ask questions in the comments below and they will email you. They're both very approachable.

scotts33

Sneakylong Thanks. IMO if you are going to try this more single plane (playing length/lie) correct fit will be paramount to get decent performance.

pellmell

Sneakylong All I see is bad swings. This is a classic example of the blind leading the blind.

Sneakylong

pellmell

What's your definition of a bad swing? Just because it's unconventional makes it bad? JH, Mr. X (his name is Matt), Bill Phillips and Matt Gray are all scratch golfers. The two Matts are high swing speed scratch golfers. JH is 76 and can put it out there pretty good himself. And Bill Philipps is 67 and no short hitter as well. Do some research before you spout off.

I'd love to have a 'bad swing' and be able to be a scratch golfer. 😉 Let's see you put your swing up on YouTube for all to see. Love you guys who just sit back and criticize.

scotts33

Gary take a look at this diagram (in the YT video) that John Hensby set up for CL. Now I get it much better as to aim. I also think one of my maladies is rolling wrists which will cause you to block. What Bill Phillips does with ulnar deviation ala DeChambeau helps stop rolling of wrists among other factors....keeping club on plane (single plane) and so forth.

Sneakylong

scotts33

Be careful. Mr. X's final CL swing was to not take it back so inside. He didn't want the club head to get inside the hands. And if you listen carefully JH says the inside 'channel' is a thought. Also, he is very flexible and at that time was playing the ball behind his back foot. That's why I recommend watching the more recent videos. The older ones are fun to watch the evolution process though.

garyt1957

scotts33 Yea that's a great explanation. I have to remember to go to the web site instead of watching the hodge podge on youtube. I'm sure it's in better order. I"m going to give it a try today. I've only tried a couple swings before and quit because it hurt my back but I think I've learned enough now to give it a go.
I sliced my left thumb open and have 7 stitches so I'll have to manufacture a grip.

garyt1957

Sneakylong I do agree without prior knowledge of these guys that Bill's swing especially doesn't look that good or efficient. JH's looks so-so and the other two guys look spot on good. I don't care what it looks like if it works. I'd try a new swing if a hack at the range showed it to me just because I think it's fun. It's hard to believe after hundreds of years of golf somebody's going to come up with something demonstrably new and better. But it could be better for ME.

pellmell

Sneakylong What's your definition of a bad swing? Just because it's unconventional makes it bad?

Swings with eccentricities require compensations, which makes them bad. These compensation should not be promoted as swing methods.

Tinker

Have been following this post and checking out all the videos and just don’t get how you actually play a round of golf with these swings. If your 150 out with a pin front right do you just hit a draw , hope it holds the green and leave a 60 foot putt? Do you have the ability to hit a high soft 80 yard wedge that hits the green and stops?On a dog leg right do you just draw it left and leave the longest approach shot possible?

Sneakylong

Tinker

All four of these guys hit baby draws with this swing. Works for them. For one of them if they want to hit a fade they add forward shaft lean. Kenny Perry does pretty good with a constant draw, just as Colin Montgomery does OK with a predictable fade.

If you can get a predictable ball flight you're well ahead of the game IMO. I like the fact that there are some thinking out of the box even if it may not be my cup of tea.

Is CL the magic elixir for every golfer? Hell no. But it may work for some and just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it should be condemned to the trash heap.

I think they have a name for that on the internet and it starts with a T. 😎 Not saying you're trolling, but someone else seems headed in that direction.

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