Component driver madness

Tinker · 2017-04-12T00:25:05+00:00

Have noticed component drivers get more expensive the older they get. I see 12 year old designs ( Bang, Alpha) that are way out over 100 bucks and are older...

ode

accufitgolf what model?

accufitgolf

ode

The info is:
Hireko Acer XS Ti driver, model: TM1458.
Aldila Aldalite Graphite Shaft, A Flex, FLOed.
Driver is 45 inches. D4. Winn DriTac wrap, midsize.

My shaft of choice is Aldila NV, A flex, SST Pured but I figured for $20 I would give the Aldalite a go. I may still reshaft with the NV as I keep a few on hand.

DC300

Indacup

Well, I had some pretty decent luck with TS heads in the past. I never really did get a shaft that truly worked well for me in one, but I think that's something to do with the fact I went through Tim a lot and he always seemed to think softer is better and decided to error on that side. That's not really a fit for me, I'm an aggressive transition and can get over 120 mph club head speed, so soft is not my friend.

I'm slightly hesitant because I broke the 5n2 twice before being told it wasn't t really for guys over 105, then got the bright blue head, don't remember the name, cracked that face, then got the one that looked like fangs on top, TVC maybe? Anyway, I liked that head, but again soft shaft kinda killed it. So if it's a head for higher swing speeds, you have something low loft (8 or lower) and a stout shaft, I could get into the idea. I'm kind of the odd ball of the group so, it's understandable if those are not in the initial plans. Keep me in the loop if so.

kelco9

accufitgolf Wow, 4 to 6* AoA. That's why you need that lower loft! Glad to hear that you are getting more length out of it.

accufitgolf

kelco9

One of the major differences in the swing of an amatuer and that of a professional golfer is the release. Most professionals hold their release. That is one reason most do not hit lower lofted drivers. Most amatuer golfers release early thus have a positive angle of attack.

kelco9

accufitgolf Hmm. While there are a lot of aspects of the swing and release that can affect the dynamic loft, I think it is the early release and added dynamic loft that actually allows you to use that lower loft. If you (or anyone else) had a 90 mph swing and did not somehow create this upward AoA (through early release or whatever other means), there is no way that a 10.5 degree driver would carry as far as a 12.5.

According to Trackman, the optimum trajectory with a 90 mph swing is 16 degrees. Your positive AoA allows you to achieve this trajectory, with less spin (which isn't always a good thing at this swing speed), and a shallower angle of descent. According to the Trajectoware modelling software, your carry with those two drivers should be about the same, with the 10.5 degree only carrying about a yard longer. However, the shallower angle of descent, with less backspin, results in a better roll out.

Does that sound accurate?

P.S. - I would like to hear if anyone has any solid stats on the AoA for professionals. I had always understood that they generated, on average, about +4* AoA with their drivers. However, I saw another post recently that said they actually have an average AoA of -1 with their drivers, so I'm not sure which is true. If no one here has the stats, I might have to do some digging.

ode

accufitgolf thx....the acer xs is a nice looking driver head, I really like the look of the copper crown and black face......does it set up square at address?

DC300

kelco9

I don't know where I saw it, but I know that +4 is way off. I think it's closer to level that it ever has been, but most of the "old school" guys grew up swinging down on the ball. This tends to generate a bit more back spin and more control inherently. That's why these guys are pros. I had to work to get my AOA down to +3 because you can't find equipment to fit at 120 mph ss, 5-6 up swing and a 9 head launches moon shots. It wouldn't be much issue for the average guy at 90mph, but at your speeds, you can't have that.

garyt1957

kelco9

I've seen where pro's actually hit down 1 on average, Bubba was about 4-6 up. The reasoning was hitting down is more accurate and the pro's are plenty long this way and don't need the extra distance ( and greater dispersion) hitting up affords.

DC300

Ps , I have no idea how I got italics in the last post. Phone does phunny things.

ZWExton

DC300

Using the asterisk (that we often use for "degrees") creates italics on this site for some reason. Works like an on/off.

Check out my 9 driver for example. 9 is perfect.

Asterisks after both 9s.

accufitgolf

While I have always been an advocate of swing analyzers, there is not a one of them that can measure every single thing. They rely on algorithms to "predict" ball flight. Some more than others. Meaning they are not actually following/measuring the ball all the way. Also they do not account for feel, nor sound, nor looks which do play a role in club selection.

A swing analyzer can help separate the wheat for the chaff, but the final decision maker is actual play.

I have often advised if one liked a demo club then try and buy it versus order one new. They are not all alike.

DC300

accufitgolf

I agree! I bought my 3 wood that way, hit it, liked it, and had them ship that very club to me across the country. It was the first one I could just swing and know where it is going, there was no comparison to everything else I had tried, I wasn't risking it. To this day, as long as I stay down on the ball, that club is the most solid in my bag.

kelco9

Well, that didn't take long. According to this site (http://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-average-tour-stats/), in 2014 (I can't find more recent data), the average AoA on tour was -1.3 degrees. However, this article, http://golfweek.com/2016/04/19/equipment-clubhead-speed-spin-launch-anglefactor-gaining-yardage/, which is very interesting and certainly on-topic for this thread, says, " But the longest drivers hit up on the ball and create a positive attack angle. Bubba Watson and Dustin Johnson commonly have an upward attack angle greater than 4 degrees. When the driver is swinging downward into impact, the launch angle decreases and the spin rate increases, robbing shots of distance. Swinging up on a drive increases launch angle, decreases spin and adds yards. As the accompanying chart based on 90-mph clubhead speed shows, changing from a minus-3 degree attack angle to a plus-3 degree attack angle would result in adding 13 yards without swinging any faster."

And there you go. 🙂

P.S. One thing that confuses me a bit on the "optimized distance" chart in the second article is how low the smash factor is. Is the ability to achieve the maximum 1.50 SF dictated by swing speed? This chart would seem to suggest this.

DC300

See there's the real pain in the @$$, look at that chart, the higher the swing speed, the lower the launch needed to get the most distance, yet the big hitters hit up on the ball.. which is probably why TM decided you get the 16* launch and next to no spin to max out and it's possible (only with their drivers of course).. oh and one out of 200 shots might yield those numbers.

So yeah, 90 mph guys want more launch.. I'm going to pass on it though.

kelco9

DC300 But Bubba hits a 5* driver...kidding. But I think it's around 8.

Indacup

So let me ask a question...

Do you people think there's an interest in a new 2017 component driver, assembled to fit, and delivered (CONUSA) for about two bills?

Or is the big thing to wait out an open for a year?

ode

Indacup what does "assembled to fit" mean?

I don't see much interest in a component driver assembled for $200, not anytime soon....back when there were no adjustable and removable hosel drivers, and the component industry was still doing well, I could see, maybe.....but with the popularity of the adjustable and removable hosel drivers, I see no going back to the old way of bonded drivers. The component industry as far as drivers go, have been left in the dust.....that may be a bit harsh, but IMO reality. I still prefer the old way of finding the right loft in conjunction with the f.a. preference, and not fitting loft by changing the f.a. to closed or open depending on which way you are going, seems counterintuitive to me, but that's a whole other can of worms.

MidwayJ

Indacup So let me ask a question...

Do you people think there's an interest in a new 2017 component driver, assembled to fit, and delivered (CONUSA) for about two bills?

Or is the big thing to wait out an open for a year?

I don't know how successful the Bombtech Grenade and Sinister Agent Orange have been, but they are examples of assembled, "non major brand name" drivers released somewhat recently. I also don't recall their prices, but perhaps if they have found a niche there might be some demand out there. I know almost no one who buys the latest model OEM driver for $300-$400, yet there must still be plenty out there who do.

kelco9

ode I think adjustable drivers are the biggest sales gimmick I have ever seen. Everyone insists on them, but they are like a recipe to print money for golf manufacturers. Unless the player has some understanding of the adjustments they are making, that's just a recipe for disaster in my mind. Geez, I hit a little left today, I think I'll adjust my driver. Oh, I hit a bit right today, I think I'll adjust my driver. I hit it...ad nauseum.

I talk to just about everyone I play with who has one of these things, and I have yet to find a person who actually understands what they are adjusting when they change the setting. I've only found one guy who even knew about face angle on a driver, and he didn't understand how the adjustments affected FA. Can there be a better sales formula than to give the average player the ability to keep chasing settings until their game is so f'd up that they look for a new driver. The next great, buzzy thing? Here, golfer...this should be just about enough rope to hang yourself.

But even more common is the person who buys an adjustable driver and NEVER adjusts it from the original setting. I'm not sure whether this has changed, but I once read that something like 90+% of golfers never have their adjustable driver professionally adjusted/fitted, and more than 70% never take them out of their original setting. But they insist on having them.

As for a adjustable component driver that a fitter carries? Why would any fitter (or golfer) take two hours to fit a driver, and then send the person home with an adjustable driver. (The only answer is this seems to be the only way to make sale. In other words, it doesn't have anything to do with helping the player -- just making sales. In that case, the fitter is as bad as OEM for not really giving a shit.) I'm not sure, but I suspect that's why Wishon's adjustable driver only lasted one season before being put out to pasture.

Either you want to get fit or you don't. If you want to tinker and f-around with your loft setting trying to find the magical number, skip the fitting and just buy an adjustable club. But if I ever fit someone into an adjustable driver, I could see the conversation going like this:
"Great, there's the perfect setting for you. Just wait a second while I go epoxy this setting."
"What?! I want my driver adjustable!"
"Yeah? Well I don't want you coming back into my shop in a week or two complaining that you can't hit this f'n driver I sold you, only to discover that the settings are nothing like the ones that I fitted you for."

DC300

kelco9 I played with a 6 for a number of years, currently up to an "8" setting. I'm not in Bubba's class, but I am sure he could put a 2* in the air, that boy can swing.

ode

kelco9 adjustable and removable hosel drivers aren't a gimmick, but the marketing behind them certainly is, it's just latest and greatest gimmick the OEM,s use to sell. They do far more to influence ball flight then, say moving 5 to 10 grams of weight around and that influencing ball flight....At least adjusting for face angle can influence flight.

As I've learned from Scott and some of the other guys who fit on here, the average golfer is not up to speed on what is actually going on with these adjustments, they really aren't all that knowledgeable about specs, whereas we are. We are in the minority, we just happen to have found a place to chat and discuss these things on a forum.

My main issue with adj/removable hosel is the cost of the adapter, upwards to $30, is way out of line IMO.....I just bought some flyz and f6 weights, guess how much a piece.....$25 per weight....Are you kidding, 25 for a weight. Kinda defeats the purpose of getting last year's or the year before driver for 149...With the weights and extra adapters, they still have made a killing.

kelco9

DC300 That's interesting, DC. A 6 is a really low loft. Many years ago I had a 6 in a Callaway. The bizarre part of that driver was that I hit it really high. I can't explain it, and neither could a fitter I visited. Even worse, I was inconsistent and lacked control with it. It didn't stay in the bag long.

When I said Bubba had a 5, I wasn't really kidding at first. I had read that he really did play a 5, but I went to confirm this before posting and found that he is hitting an 8. Maybe some control issues? It's entirely possible that he has chosen to sacrifice some distance for control. I may have told this story on here before, but a few majors back, the commentators on one of the majors were discussing Zach Johnson's driver and how he had chosen to hit the ball higher than "optimum" in order to gain control. One of the commentators said, "The hall of fame is full of players who never saw optimum."

I think a lot of players need to hear that line. Optimum is defined by where on the length vs. accuracy spectrum your swing puts you. The "optimum" is the particular driver that the player can hit longest while keeping it under control. That may be a driver that is quite a ways off the longest driver.

ZWExton

The adjustable drivers to allow for much simpler shaft changes, no? I still use a bonded driver, and I don't wish I could adjust its settings, but I wouldn't hate being able to swap shafts easily.

As for a $200 component driver... Tough sell. The market is so saturated with last year's OEM stuff in that same price range or much less. Even component enthusiasts have a hard time not biting on a mint 2016 M2 for $180.

kelco9

ZWExton I definitely think you're right on that ZW, if you're one of those players that like to switch your shafts around. But if you are one of these people, I think you are part of a very small minority of adjustable shaft owners who actually do so. None of my friends own multiple shafts, but that's a very small sampling considering that I'm obnoxious and I have few friends. 🙂

But I think there is an even smaller number of players who truly have reason and, more to the point, the knowledge to swap shaft out meaningfully. Again, a fitting will put you into a good shaft for you based on flex, weight, balance, etc., and once you have found that, why change? I think the adjustable driver allows people (and even entices people) to swap in and out shafts in hopes of finding the magic wand -- again, a cash cow. They do so without considering critical issues, such as weight. They just look at the letter on the shaft, which is bogus. Hell, they're swapping in and out shafts that are all building to 46"! Cash cow!

Of course, in discussing this, I am really thinking about the average golfer, who has average knowledge of golf equipment, usually derived from advertisements. But like ODE points out, on this board we are having a conversation among people who have above average knowledge about equipment. I fully believe that an adjustable driver may very well be effective in the hands of such people. You guys have a far greater understanding of what is happening when the adjustments are made and the effects they have on the specs and shot. You then least have a chance of making meaningful changes.

That being said, I have read quite a bit about adjustable drivers and watched Tom Wishon's video on them multiple times, and I still am a bit confused by them. It wasn't until very recently, when I was reading the adjustment specs on one of the drivers that I understood that increasing the loft actually closed the face angle. That is counterintuitive since we usually open the face on clubs to increase loft and hood them when we need a bit of added length. I don't think the average person has any clue about this.

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