Hitting higher with stiffer tips

DonM

I have played my Snake Eyes Viper MS irons with UST Proforce RV2 75R shafts for years. I just built a second set of the same heads, on Aldalite R flex shafts. I hit the new ones quite a bit higher. Lofts and lies are checked.

I profiled the shafts in using the industry standard 454g weight, every 5" from 36" beam down to 11". Here is the graph. The left most point is for 41" for wood shafts. It can be ignored as it just matches the 36" points when irons are used. The Aldalite is the straight orange line. As you can see, the Aldalite is stiffer tipped, yet hits it higher. For me. And that's probably the catch, right? I find this pretty interesting.
Score one for custom fitting, or trial and error in my case.

Also, I bet I can tip the iRN S flex and make it a very close match, including tip flex, to the Aldalite. But there is no good reason to do it.

pellmell

There are other characteristics to consider, like weight, torque and balance point.

scotts33

UST Proforce RV2 75R torque 3.2 doesn't matter flex, 80g or so
AldilaLite iron 4.0 torque, 65g
Unsure on balance point.

Torque and weight make them very different IMO. This would definitely show up in a MoI (kg-cm²) heft match set and would explain the trajectory difference. It would not in a swing weight (arbitrary letter-number) heft matched set.

kelco9

This is interesting, Don, and raises a question I have with the current wisdom about shaft flex and dynamic loft.

The current wisdom (which I believe originates with Tom Wishon) is that unless you have a swing speed over 100 MPH and a very late release, there is no dynamic loft as a result of shaft bend. Without these swing characteristics, every shaft we swing, regardless of flex profile, comes into impact with little to no flex/bend in the shaft. As a result, the flex of the tip section of the shaft (or any other part of the shaft) shouldn't matter in terms of ball flight.

The implication/extension of this "wisdom" is that since there is no flex in the shaft, any change in dynamic loft is a result of how the player delivers the club into the ball. That difference is generated by a difference in feel of the club. As others have pointed out, feel, in terms of the shaft, is primarily a function of weight and balance point. I would add to this list, flex in the butt section and/or a difference in the ratio between the butt and tip flex, if you're sensitive to this.

Here's my question for Mr. Wishon, et. al.:
Tom says that the one effect that can result from a stiffer tip section is that impact will feel "harsher." The only way I can think of this happening is if the shaft/head "gives" a little at impact, which makes total sense. The softer the shaft, the more give and softer the feel. However, if that is the case, then wouldn't this slight give also result in a softer shaft bending back slightly, which would reduce loft? That would explain a bit lower trajectory.

(On a different note, but one related to this same topic, wouldn't the "give" in the shaft at impact also affect the efficiency of the energy transfer (think the difference between throwing a ball against a hard and soft surface -- throwing a ball against a wall and catching it is fun; throwing it against a mattress, not so much).

I know that this consideration would create a very small effect, but I'm curious about it.

DonM

kelco9
The Aldalite clubs have a better feel at impact than the RV2. Might be the higher torque feels better. I know that in driver shafts, the very low torque shafts usually are called boardy by most users.

On occasion I have used some cheap very high torque shafts. 8-9 degrees I measured. On some impacts they have a very distinctive, bad feel. It's hard to describe. It's like a slippage of the club head.

DonM

I tend to discount some of Tom's rules. He's a great guy and no doubt is right on most things, but no answer is one size fits all. I have a shorter swing and decent move through the ball for a slower speed guy, so I definitely see differences in ball flights from shafts.

I will measure the balance points and torques for the points raised above
Actually I have the raw shaft torque measurements here in my notes:
RV2 3.6
Aldalite 4.3
The iRN shafts were still higher torque. The R flex was 4.7 and the two S flex I checked averaged around 5.0.

Measuring two 37 inch clubs:
Balance point is 13/16" lower on the Aldalite than RV2.
Aldalite club is 20 grams lighter. Seems like it should be a smaller difference. The low balance point helps make swingweight with less headweight, maybe. Also I have several layers of buildup tape on the RV club. I suppose they could be a gram per layer. In any event let's figure the Aldalite is 15 grams lighter, about equal to the difference in the raw shafts.
Finished frequencies of the clubs in questions are quite similar, and swingweights were both D2. Same grips too.

My theory is that the stiffer tip or higher bend point is a better match for my loading. It either better matches up with my swing speed curve and/or it causes a beneficial difference in the swing.

Robin Arthur said that lower BP clubs hit higher. Maybe they do. I could test that with the iRN shafts which are about the same BP and weight as the Aldila. My initial impressions of the iRN R and S were good. They swung a lot like the RV2, which has been my default shaft. And the profiles show the same shape, so that is understandable. That's a find for me. But the Aldalite, from the first hit last year with a test 7 iron, made me do a double take on the height. And the distance is as good if not longer than I'm used to. Winner winner chicken dinner.

DonM

Also, if anyone cares, the iRN shafts measure 1 to 1.5 flexes soft of the marked flex. The S flex one didn't seem to stiffen as much as expected with each tipping increment. I didn't check the R that way.

The Aldalite R's are in the expected range for regular. Maybe on the soft side but in range. With tipping they get stiffer faster than expected. I wonder if they are meant to be butt trim only. They come with prepped tips, for one thing. And on their web site, the instructions are unclear. I could call and ask, but I don't care, I like them tipped the way GW and Hireko specify.

So there is more than you wanted to know about two 65 gram $15 shafts. 😃

Sarnella

There was a question asked on the Maltby site in regard to the Aldalites being pre-prepped.
They said they were not - they were just not painted. That is all I know about that.