JB Holmes - what would you have done?
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kchacker You keep referring to "one hole". JB is notoriously slow, this isn't a one time incident. He was slow the entire back nine on Sunday.
This isn't a one shot problem. It's a habit.
This thread isn't about him being slow. It is about his slow decision process on hole 18 last Sunday. It has turned into a JB bash as a slow player. I have not been defending his day to day pace of play. I have just been saying that he is being unjustly grilled for taking a few extra minutes for a very important decision on hole 18. I have probably posted this a dozen times in this thread. If you have been following this thread since the first post you will see that.
Section I - Etiquette; Behavior on the Course
Play at Good Pace and Keep Up
Players should play at a good pace. The Committee may establish pace of play guidelines that all players should follow.
It is a group's responsibility to keep up with the group in front. If it loses a clear hole and it is delaying the group behind, it should invite the group behind to play through, irrespective of the number of players in that group. Where a group has not lost a clear hole, but it is apparent that the group behind can play faster, it should invite the faster moving group to play through.
Be Ready to Play
Players should be ready to play as soon as it is their turn to play. When playing on or near the putting green, they should leave their bags or carts in such a position as will enable quick movement off the green and towards the next tee. When the play of a hole has been completed, players should immediately leave the putting green.
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Understood and appreciated. I always respect your usually fair-and-balanced perspective.
I just think, at the same time, we need to understand that the habitually slow players on tour are not gonna be looked favorably upon when it takes them nearly 5 minutes to execute a fairly routine shot. If Jordan Spieth was in that same situation - he would also be getting grilled. And Jordan's not exactly the fastest player on the planet.
And I know these guys are playing for a lot of money. And I certainly don't discount that. And other than his slow-pokedness - I'm a fan of J.B. Holmes. The guy seems to be a genuinely good guy with a great heart. And in the scheme of things - that's really all that matters, outside of golf.
But as it pertains to televised golf? Dude is slow. He's part of the problem. This was the Farmer's... not the Masters, the US Open, the British or the PGA... but the Farmers.
My goodness! How much time should we allot these guys to execute a fairly routine shot, in situations that don't require the need of a ruling official? I think it's high time that these guys, all of them, be held to a higher standard. They're playing in twosomes and threesomes, for crying out loud. There is simply no excuse for 3 players to need 5-and-a-half hours to complete a round of golf. Regardless of who it is or how much money they're playing for.
If the PGA Tour is serious about making their televised product more appealing to viewers, if they're interest in developing a more quality broadcast - they need to address this.
Otherwise - deal with the consequences... not only as it relates to a lack of interest in the viewership, but also a lack of interest for sponsors willing to dole out several million dollars to a product that (more and more) fewer people care to tune in for.
Lots of things add to the disinterested viewership, for sure... but nothing kills telecasted viewer ratings quicker than boredom. And the ass-scratching and 4-minute deliberating of the moon, the tides, and the center of gravity over every last shot on a Sunday afternoon doesn't exactly help their cause.
Not to mention the really poor example it sets, which is often times replicated by the weekend golfer at the grass roots level. And again - don't get me wrong... I don't really blame J.B. as much as I blame the Tour brass for letting this type of slow play to continue to exist.
But to say that players like him are not part of the problem would be extremely short sided.
PA-PLAYA And I know these guys are playing for a lot of money. And I certainly don't discount that. And other than his slow-pokedness - I'm a fan of J.B. Holmes. The guy seems to be a genuinely good guy with a great heart. And in the scheme of things - that's really all that matters, outside of golf.
+1, who can forget Zinger making him a Captains pick in 2008 at Valhalla for the RC, and he played really well!
Hey, when I joined my first private club.... I'd spent the past 20+ years adjusting to a 5-hour round, simply because there was no enforcement by the public courses that I frequented regarding pace of play.
I developed my usual routine over those two decades.... whether it was killing the wait-time with conversation with my playing partners, or cleaning my golf clubs while I waited... I got into a routine that helped me "climatize" to the situation.
So I'm a year in at my private club. A playing partner, who was sincerely genuine in his approach to me to help me maintain a fairly welcoming status to the other players at the club, made this remark to me one afternoon.
"You have a reputation for being a somewhat 'deliberate' player."
Instead of me taking immediate offense to his perspective, I decided right then and there - "well... the last thing I want at my new private club is a reputation of being a slow player." I thanked him for his advice and went about making the "adjustment" from a 5+ hour round of golf that I'd been accustomed to all those years at the public courses I played to "adjusting" to a much more efficient style of play.
And it took me about a month to make that adjustment.
Early on - my average scores increased 4-5 shots per round. But here's the interesting thing... once I made that adjustment, once it hit me that I have less time to contemplate every last thing before each and every shot - my commitment level increased. Less time for thought led to better results.
I was more accepting of the occasional bad shot, which led to a better mental frame of mind overall as it pertained to my recovery abilities.
My entire game improved.
And all because I was basically "forced" to embrace a more efficient, carefree style of play. Less forethought, less time to think about all of the extenuating circumstances prior to every last shot. I went from being one of the slower players in my group to having to wait on the other players in my group at the private club.
It was a great lesson I learned, and it helped my game. All because one guy in our group had the balls to confront me. I could've taken offense to it, but I simply decided to use it as motivation to adjust and become a more proficient player. And I'm sure the guys playing behind me appreciated it even more.
It's possible to shoot a 65 for 18 holes in 44 minutes. This guy did it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_golf
Somewhere between his pace and Holmes pace is reasonable. 
Didn't take him nearly 5 minutes, I'm guessing.
J.B. responded earlier this week to the outcry, firstly apologizing to his playing partner for taking too much time, but at the same time also admitting that he personally didn't understand all of the fallout.
These guys are absolutely tone-def when it comes to slow play. They don't care.
They don't care because there are no consequences for setting such a horrible example and putting playing partners through this type situation that doesn't require the need of a rules official. Start docking these guys strokes for bad times - this all changes. And again, not to lay the blame at the feet of J.B... he's not the only one. And since the Tour doesn't care about how long it takes - then why should the players care?
The lion's share of the blame goes to the PGA Tour. They simply refuse to enforce it.
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I think I remember that.
Yes, certainly there are times when one needs to regather himself in that situation, especially if he's a quicker player and gets a little quicker than he's accustomed to, and needs to refocus.
But sometimes, as is the case with me anyway, when I play with slower players - I get out of my rhythm and try to play quicker than usual - trying to do whatever I can to help us play quicker as a group. That's where slow players wear on their quicker-playing partners... they put pressure on their fellow playing partners to help make up the difference.
But one does need at least a modicum of time to process what is required of him as a player to at least give himself a chance to execute a decent shot.
It's just that when you find yourself looking over your shoulder constantly, wondering if players playing behind you are waiting on you, it's very difficult to not get out of your usual playing rhythm when you've got a slowpoke in the group who ain't looking over his shoulder, who couldn't give two shits about those playing with and behind him. Most golfers who respect the etiquette part of the game have that awareness... some do not, however. Only to say that a slow player can have a significant negative impact on others playing with them. And I'm not talking about the occasion stray ball that takes a couple minutes to find, etc... we all deal with that. That's expected. It's a difficult game. But on a routine shot? Different story.
Me personally? I'd rather have to wait on a group ahead of me than feel rushed because the group behind is up my ass.
But 4 hours is plenty of time for a 4some to play 18 holes. 4:15-4:30 is pushing it, but not intolerable. But beyond that - it starts having a seriously negative impact on my game and overall performance.
And that's part of the reason why I joined a private club. Longest round I played at my club last year was a scramble, believe it or not. Took 4:30. It was an outside outing that I signed up with a buddy to play in, because it was for a good cause.
My weekend group usually gets 18 holes in in-under 4 hours, or at the 4:05 mark.
I think that's about perfect for me. We're keeping up with the group ahead, but not waiting... and also not making the group behind wait on us.
Keep pace with the group ahead. That's my motto.
PA-PLAYA Me personally? I'd rather have to wait on a group ahead of me than feel rushed because the group behind is up my ass.
I actually hate both. Too slow, particularly on a cooler day plays hell with my old geezer back. People on me arse bugs me and can have an impact on my game as well. Our group used to play about four hours. At 68 I am the pup in the group with one 74, one 77 and one 84. I am about the only one who can see the ball and I can't watch them all so we spend a lot of time ball searching. We are creeping toward 4:30 - 4:45 per round. The two oldest are really slowing down in general. I just don't see anyway to speed them up. We do let faster groups through but that only lengthens our round some.
In my defense of JB's slow decision making last Sunday I am in no way promoting slow play including that of JB, just he decision time he took last Sunday. Slow play is my biggest burr in the saddle. Fortunately on our favorite track we can skip around slower groups and pick up those holes later. On occasion if it is super slow and we can skip holes we will just quit. I would rather not play than to play a super slow round.
I hear ya. My last year at the public club (which is just a mile up the road and super convenient, nice layout, very affordable, usually in decent condition) - me and my group went out at 8:30 a.m. on a Saturday. They'd put an outing out first thing that morning, 40 players ahead of us. When we holed our puts out on the 10th green, it was 11:45.
Took that group 3 hours to play 9 holes. I just took my bag off my cart, walked back to the parking lot and left. I swore that day that I'd never again deal with that. I love my golf experience too much to endure that degree of frustration. But they just refused to confront slow groups because they were afraid to turn off players from never coming back. But what they didn't understand that by enabling that environment - they were losing business... guys like me, groups like ours, who would go in after the round and drink a few beers and have lunch - they lost that part of their business that was most profitable.
Very next year I joined a private club.
Even though it was 15 miles away, it was still like heaven to me. Went from averaging a 5:15 round the year prior to actually being able to finish 18 holes the following year at the private club, sit at the bar and have lunch, and walking through the door at the house roughly 5 hours later.
Not sure I could tolerate that anymore, even if I couldn't afford a private club. I'd rather not play than deal with that.
I have found a place where the pace of play is to my liking. If I could argue my way to a good pace on any given day, I would....but there is no convincing people on this topic....slow players can simply go fuck themselves, JB included!
How about the event last summer when Speith took about a half hour to drop somewhere on the driving range.
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ode how long did he take to hit the shot after he dropped? A better comparison IMO
Kind of a apples to oranges comparison. But, a 30 minute delay is a 30 minute delay. I watched that shot. The diff is I didn't hear the commentators whining about the delay. Spieth walked around like a chicken with it's head cut off trying to decide where to drop. He should have known where to drop it, he just didn't like it so he kept chatting with the official hoping to get a miracle ruling for a better drop. So, Spieth takes 30 minutes, pulls off the shot and is a hero. JB takes 4 min. doesn't hit a tourney winner and is a bum.